Thomas Moore Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 I got started in the shooting sports through IDPA. I thought IDPA was the best thing around.....until I was turned on to USPSA. My one bitch about IDPA are the inconsistancies with club rules and book rules. I just got back from a state match and I was extremely dissapointed on local club rules that went against everything in the LGB. ie why on earth would one retain an empty mag and not be allowed to procede to the end of a wall before mag changes. When I got started in IDPA, it was a fun sport. Now there are too many range commandos that tell people it's their way or the high way...well I think I'm taking the highway when it comes to IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 Yeah tell me about it. On that stage, I was tempted to shoot to slide-lock and drop my empty mag just to fight it, but I decided it wasn't worth blowing the entire match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 Unless you go to slide lock, you need to retain, even if the mag is empty. Dumping extra rounds just to get around the rule can be considered FTDR. That is a book rule, not a local rule. Seems dumb to me too, but it's part of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 On this particular stage, there was plenty of reasons to shoot to slide-lock, especially if you were shooting CDP. There was a popper at about 15 yards, which most people shot two shots at. That popper activated a swinger that could only be shot on the left side of a no-shoot about 10 yards away. On this swinger, you needed to put 5 shots into it. So if someone shooting CDP wanted to fire a few makeup shots, he'd be at slide-lock and have to retain that mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 Stallion when you get to slide lock you can dump the mag, no penalty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 Yes, I know that. The RO stated that if you shot to slide-lock on this stage that you would have to retain the mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 Sounds like bad course design, rather than a problem with the rules. Since coming up with good courses every time is challenging, this happens at every club eventually. If your club is having trouble coming up with new IDPA scenarios, check out http://www.tacticalshooters.com/COF/Scenario.htm for an archive of over 600 scenarios. Not all of them are great, but with the vast array of choices it isn't too hard to find ones you'll like. Was this "bad stage" at a state/regional match or a local match? If it was local I would just mention it to the local guys as a bum scenario and explain that in IDPA there are only 3 reloads and a "slide lock reload with retention" is not one of them. If it was state/regional I would forward the course description, RO interpretation, and protest to the Area Coordinator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snokid Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 Vincent This was a State match... In Michigan we have a few clubs that like to play by their own rules. In my group there was a revovler guy and he got to drop his reload on the ground...seems fair huh? I have only shot uspsa once but next year I won't be attending many idpa matches just for this reason... sno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 snokid, don't let that drive you away from IDPA. it can be fun and enjoyable. Remember, the only way to change something is to stay with it and change it from within. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 Vluc There may be something to what you are saying, but sometimes if you get a bad taste in your mouth, it is better to leave it alone for a while and come back later, 4or 6 months maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snokid Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 I will still shoot my local club, but as far as driving all over the state to shoot idpa I don't think it will be top on my list. It's not that IDPA is bad, but when you get to a match and a range nazi go nuts it just sours you... part of the problem is that the head honco's at headquarters need to get their duck's in a row in the next rule book. That would stop some of the madness... sno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 Now I am with you guys. You had to retain an empty magazine even if you went to slidelock. That's crap and a pet peeve of mine to boot. If the match is sanctioned, it needs to follow the rules of the governing body, period. I suppose that's a pretty narrow (anal) view, but it would solve a lot of problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 It's my understanding that during the last IDPA club renewal process all IDPA clubs had to sign a letter stating that they were going to follow the IDPA rules. I remember this because it caused a nearby club to drop out of IDPA and just run "unsanctioned" matches. If the problem club has the rule book, has signed a letter stating that they would follow the rules and are still not, then I don't see how changing the rule book is going to fix anything. Why would they start using the new rules all of a sudden? The problem (in this case) isn't IDPA, but the club. The Area Coordinator is supposed to approve all scenarios used in state/regional level matches. As you feel strongly about it, I would contact the Area Coordinator and report this issue. Otherwise these types of problems will continue to happen in your area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 It was my understanding that to have a sanctioned match,the MD had to sign a statement that he[and staff] would have to follow the lgb to the letter. The retention of an empty mag on a S/L reload is bogus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 The thing is, that was not stipulated in the original COF. The RO added that in to the walkthrough. On a side note, on a different forum we are having this discussion too, and the MD of the Michigan State Match posted that he backs his RO's all the way, obviously he was in favor of following his rules instead of the LGB's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 There is some of that in USPSA as well. It doesn't sound as bad as the IDPA rule bending though. Perhaps USPSA benefits from a relatively complete and established rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snokid Posted September 17, 2002 Share Posted September 17, 2002 "The Area Coordinator is supposed to approve all scenarios used in state/regional level matches." As I understand it the MD here is also the area coordinator, I know at least he trains the SO's in the area. What about the foot fault lines he also had? With all that training how could this happen at his match? sno (Edited by snokid at 7:25 pm on Sep. 17, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 18, 2002 Share Posted September 18, 2002 It happens because some times the guys running the match are caught up in their own self importance and that is all they care about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted September 18, 2002 Share Posted September 18, 2002 The problem is they tried to make the match even for all divisions. Because the CDP shooters would have had to make an extra mag change, the stage was changed for everyone. I am not saying anything bad about the CDP shooters. It is just that a couple of the SO's shooting CDP complained and they changed the COF. They forgot that they were only shooting against CDP's. On another stage, the SO didn't read the COF, he gave his interpratation of it. Most of the stages were fun to shoot, but you had to listen very carefully to the instructions given by the SO, because they were not always the same as what was written. The courses were not written that bad. The problem was with the way they were run. Don't take too big a step on your first step, don't drop an empty mag at slide lock, a wall is not cover until after you reload. I hope the IDPA looks at itself closely before it only has SO's and no shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted September 18, 2002 Share Posted September 18, 2002 scandog, When did you shoot? I didn't think many forum members would be attending this match. I shot Sunday in squad 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 18, 2002 Share Posted September 18, 2002 Wow. I appreciated the way the WA State match was run before....but I appreciate it even more now! Strictly according to the LGB with no weird-ass "interpretations," the course descriptions clear and consistently enforced. Hell, come to Washington for your next IDPA match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 Glad to hear there some places they do it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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