Stage Design

[JThompson]

Here is the stage

excuse_me.DOC

Talked about adding a slot in the middle maybe

According to that stage description, T4, T5, and T9 and T11 are not visible from the lower ports.

I stand 5' 2". Around here we also have ladies and junior shooters who are shorter than I am. When I run tall shooters, I have to be careful to stand far enough away to avoid getting an

elbow in the eye when they draw. :-)

<tongue in cheek>

I'll help you blow out the myth that "everyone can get lower, but we cannot all get taller". Assuming you followed rule 2.2.6 (Props must be strong enough to withstand use by all competitors.), I would take advantage of rule 2.2.2.3 (Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, all such barriers, walls, vision barriers and snow fence barriers will be considered to go from the ground to the height as constructed.) I would shoot T1, T2, T3, T6, T7, T8, T10, T11 and then re-holster my gun. Taking advantage of my rusty rock climbing skills, I'll use the low port like a ladder rung, and holding on to the top off the wall, I'll haul myself up the wall and put my feet on the upper port and then stand up and presumably get a clear view of all the remaining targets from above the top of the wall. I'll then draw and shoot the rest of the targets from that position.

</tongue in cheek>

(I don't think I'll get DQ'd for this since 2.1.9 is only against climbing berms, not props. 10.5.4 is about drawing inside a tunnel, not about being on an elevated platform.)

Seriously though:

IF the platform shown in the diagram were about 6 to 8 inches above the ground, and if the geometry were such that T4, T5, T9, and T11 are visible from the platform, then I'll shoot from the platform through the high ports.

IF geometry didn't allow for it, and since I won't be able to see through the high ports up at 5'7", I'll have to shoot blind and one handed "gangsta" style or else I'll get failure to engage penalties on top off (sorry for the pun) the misses on those targets. Alternately, I may try put on or two feet on the low ports lower edge as a step, use my weak hand to hold on the edge of the high port, and shoot one handed, but at least get to aim at the targets.

(I assume that if I shoot blind and one handed, and a round goes over the berm, or hits the ground less than 10 feet on the other side of the wall, I'll be DQ'ed, so I'll have to be extra careful. Presumably, the RO running me will tall enough to see through the port and notice if such an incident happens.)

Let's say I do climb up the wall. (Which is going to suck since I don't like heights. Yes it's true: A skydiver and rock climber who doesn't like heights.) How quickly will the laughs and giggles over my monkey impression turn into a brownpants moment when the RO and/or the peanut gallery end up staring into the muzzle of my holstered gun as I climb up the wall? When I finally get to the top and draw, does the 3 foot radius around my feet where the gun can point while holstered expand out like a cone? (Or the question rephrased: Will the same draw on the ground that doesn't break the 180, suddenly be considered breaking the 180 if performed standing on top of a chair, table, or step ladder?)

Hey Good thing, I posted the wrong stage.....you don't have to climb anything or act like a monkey

What, not inviting Micah?

JT

[professor]

Here is the stage

excuse_me.DOC

Talked about adding a slot in the middle maybe

According to that stage description, T4, T5, and T9 and T11 are not visible from the lower ports.

I stand 5' 2". Around here we also have ladies and junior shooters who are shorter than I am. When I run tall shooters, I have to be careful to stand far enough away to avoid getting an

elbow in the eye when they draw. :-)

<tongue in cheek>

I'll help you blow out the myth that "everyone can get lower, but we cannot all get taller". Assuming you followed rule 2.2.6 (Props must be strong enough to withstand use by all competitors.), I would take advantage of rule 2.2.2.3 (Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, all such barriers, walls, vision barriers and snow fence barriers will be considered to go from the ground to the height as constructed.) I would shoot T1, T2, T3, T6, T7, T8, T10, T11 and then re-holster my gun. Taking advantage of my rusty rock climbing skills, I'll use the low port like a ladder rung, and holding on to the top off the wall, I'll haul myself up the wall and put my feet on the upper port and then stand up and presumably get a clear view of all the remaining targets from above the top of the wall. I'll then draw and shoot the rest of the targets from that position.

</tongue in cheek>

(I don't think I'll get DQ'd for this since 2.1.9 is only against climbing berms, not props. 10.5.4 is about drawing inside a tunnel, not about being on an elevated platform.)

Seriously though:

IF the platform shown in the diagram were about 6 to 8 inches above the ground, and if the geometry were such that T4, T5, T9, and T11 are visible from the platform, then I'll shoot from the platform through the high ports.

IF geometry didn't allow for it, and since I won't be able to see through the high ports up at 5'7", I'll have to shoot blind and one handed "gangsta" style or else I'll get failure to engage penalties on top off (sorry for the pun) the misses on those targets. Alternately, I may try put on or two feet on the low ports lower edge as a step, use my weak hand to hold on the edge of the high port, and shoot one handed, but at least get to aim at the targets.

(I assume that if I shoot blind and one handed, and a round goes over the berm, or hits the ground less than 10 feet on the other side of the wall, I'll be DQ'ed, so I'll have to be extra careful. Presumably, the RO running me will tall enough to see through the port and notice if such an incident happens.)

Let's say I do climb up the wall. (Which is going to suck since I don't like heights. Yes it's true: A skydiver and rock climber who doesn't like heights.) How quickly will the laughs and giggles over my monkey impression turn into a brownpants moment when the RO and/or the peanut gallery end up staring into the muzzle of my holstered gun as I climb up the wall? When I finally get to the top and draw, does the 3 foot radius around my feet where the gun can point while holstered expand out like a cone? (Or the question rephrased: Will the same draw on the ground that doesn't break the 180, suddenly be considered breaking the 180 if performed standing on top of a chair, table, or step ladder?)

Hey Good thing, I posted the wrong stage.....you don't have to climb anything or act like a monkey

What, not inviting Micah?

JT

OK. Let's talk a little about the stage you posted unintentionally. You say that the 4 targets on the top of the two arrays cannot be seen from the low ports where T6 and T7 are framed. That statement implies that the lower tier targets CAN be seen through those low ports. And if they can be seen, then it's entirely likely that you have some angles for which engaging T6 and T7 will produce shoot-throughs of the lower tier targets T2, T3, T8, T10. Also, Unless there is a top barrier of some sort above T6 and T7, a shooter might be able to see and engage T4, T5, T9 and T11.

You've also got the possibility of someone shooting all targets from just two ports. They would use a sharply upward angle to get the top tier targets, which might endanger putting rounds over the berm, depending on the location of the back targets relative to the back berm. These same upward angle shots might even arise from shooters using the lower ports to engage those top tier targets.

Something to keep in mind.

[JakeMartens]

Here is the stage

excuse_me.DOC

Talked about adding a slot in the middle maybe

According to that stage description, T4, T5, and T9 and T11 are not visible from the lower ports.

I stand 5' 2". Around here we also have ladies and junior shooters who are shorter than I am. When I run tall shooters, I have to be careful to stand far enough away to avoid getting an

elbow in the eye when they draw. :-)

<tongue in cheek>

I'll help you blow out the myth that "everyone can get lower, but we cannot all get taller". Assuming you followed rule 2.2.6 (Props must be strong enough to withstand use by all competitors.), I would take advantage of rule 2.2.2.3 (Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, all such barriers, walls, vision barriers and snow fence barriers will be considered to go from the ground to the height as constructed.) I would shoot T1, T2, T3, T6, T7, T8, T10, T11 and then re-holster my gun. Taking advantage of my rusty rock climbing skills, I'll use the low port like a ladder rung, and holding on to the top off the wall, I'll haul myself up the wall and put my feet on the upper port and then stand up and presumably get a clear view of all the remaining targets from above the top of the wall. I'll then draw and shoot the rest of the targets from that position.

</tongue in cheek>

(I don't think I'll get DQ'd for this since 2.1.9 is only against climbing berms, not props. 10.5.4 is about drawing inside a tunnel, not about being on an elevated platform.)

Seriously though:

IF the platform shown in the diagram were about 6 to 8 inches above the ground, and if the geometry were such that T4, T5, T9, and T11 are visible from the platform, then I'll shoot from the platform through the high ports.

IF geometry didn't allow for it, and since I won't be able to see through the high ports up at 5'7", I'll have to shoot blind and one handed "gangsta" style or else I'll get failure to engage penalties on top off (sorry for the pun) the misses on those targets. Alternately, I may try put on or two feet on the low ports lower edge as a step, use my weak hand to hold on the edge of the high port, and shoot one handed, but at least get to aim at the targets.

(I assume that if I shoot blind and one handed, and a round goes over the berm, or hits the ground less than 10 feet on the other side of the wall, I'll be DQ'ed, so I'll have to be extra careful. Presumably, the RO running me will tall enough to see through the port and notice if such an incident happens.)

Let's say I do climb up the wall. (Which is going to suck since I don't like heights. Yes it's true: A skydiver and rock climber who doesn't like heights.) How quickly will the laughs and giggles over my monkey impression turn into a brownpants moment when the RO and/or the peanut gallery end up staring into the muzzle of my holstered gun as I climb up the wall? When I finally get to the top and draw, does the 3 foot radius around my feet where the gun can point while holstered expand out like a cone? (Or the question rephrased: Will the same draw on the ground that doesn't break the 180, suddenly be considered breaking the 180 if performed standing on top of a chair, table, or step ladder?)

Hey Good thing, I posted the wrong stage.....you don't have to climb anything or act like a monkey

What, not inviting Micah?

JT

OK. Let's talk a little about the stage you posted unintentionally. You say that the 4 targets on the top of the two arrays cannot be seen from the low ports where T6 and T7 are framed. That statement implies that the lower tier targets CAN be seen through those low ports. And if they can be seen, then it's entirely likely that you have some angles for which engaging T6 and T7 will produce shoot-throughs of the lower tier targets T2, T3, T8, T10. Also, Unless there is a top barrier of some sort above T6 and T7, a shooter might be able to see and engage T4, T5, T9 and T11.

You've also got the possibility of someone shooting all targets from just two ports. They would use a sharply upward angle to get the top tier targets, which might endanger putting rounds over the berm, depending on the location of the back targets relative to the back berm. These same upward angle shots might even arise from shooters using the lower ports to engage those top tier targets.

Something to keep in mind.

Come to the match, it will work.

[dqshooter]

I think the easiest solution is that all stages should be designed for the average shooter. I have run into this several times and if the competitor is 4" tall I can't design the match around one conpetitor. I think it is just important to remember that there are all different shapes and sizes of shooters. If you design a stage for a 6" tall shooter you are going to allienate to many shooters. Go with the middle ground and you will be good to go.

[Steven Cline]

Some of these points have been on my mind. A stage as I described would put the lie to the whole "everyone can get lower" argument though wouldn't it.

Low ports suck for big people and most times no one cares. But they should based on the number of XXXL match shirts sold.

Everyone can get lower. Gravity works for everyone.

It's the getting up part that causes difficult and is by some definitions not a shooting challenge.

[Nik Habicht]

Some of these points have been on my mind. A stage as I described would put the lie to the whole "everyone can get lower" argument though wouldn't it.

Low ports suck for big people and most times no one cares. But they should based on the number of XXXL match shirts sold.

Everyone can get lower. Gravity works for everyone.

It's the getting up part that causes difficult and is by some definitions not a shooting challenge.

To a point everyone can get lower.....

Put a few people on the ground, and you'll see that they can't all utilize very low ports in the same manner, even from prone.....