Starting Starting Strength

[Six]

For the past nine months or so I’ve been working with a trainer to get the basics of weight exercises and I’m getting much more comfortable in the gym having a basic understanding of how to work out. With a bad shoulder it took a fair bit of work for me to just be able to press a dumbbell without wobbling all over the place.

Since then I’ve gained about 12lbs. Mostly muscle as I’m leaner as well as slightly larger. I changed my diet/program a bit in the fall to cut a few pounds of fat and start to get some abs showing and I’m pretty happy with my progress and body shape.

I’m 31 years old, 6’3”, 192lbs and in the ballpark of 15% body fat.

Now, I’d like to keep the basic shape, but add a few more pounds of lean mass. Starting Strength is a barbell program based on compound exercises and linear progression. The goal is to keep it simple stupid, and gain strength rather than post impressive numbers.

More info here - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

Here are the basic workouts, alternating workout A and B on non-consecutive days with a two day rest once a week.

Workout A

• Squats - 3x5

• Bench - 3x5

• Deadlift - 1x5

• Dips - 2 x 8-12 (Introduced after a few weeks)

Workout B

• Squats - 3x5

• Standing Press - 3x5

• Pull from floor (rows 3x5 or cleans 5x3)

• Pullups/Chinups - 2 x 8-12 (Introduced after a few weeks)

To start to grow I’ve calculated my caloric needs and came up with 2,750 for maintenance.

Add to this about 400 calories for growth (15% of intake) and I hit 3,170 / day.

Those 3,170 break down into

245g protein = 979kcal

96g fats = 864kcal

332g carbs = 1327kcal

This will basically be a three month experiment to see what happens. I will at least learn something, and hopefully grow a bit as well.

Any thoughts or opinions on the program / diet very welcome.

[Kyle O]

Don't neglect cardio, even with strength training, it is important. Otherwise it looks good. Let us know how your progress goes.

Seen "Zombieland"? Rule #1 - Cardio

[Six]

Haha, yeah, I'm planning to do cardio a couple times a week at low/moderate intensity (walk/elliptical).

I'd also like to give a shout out to my wife who will cook 3,200 calories worth of reasonably healthy foods every day...

[Jake Di Vita]

First of all, great decision to get strong. Rips program flat works for anyone that does it. Do have a few concerns though.

I don't think you are getting enough food to sustain gains. When I was doing linear progression I was shooting for over 5000 calories a day, and I'm 5'7. Don't worry about gaining fat right now. Muscle is a hell of a lot harder to gain than fat is to lose. Up that food intake. Get more calories from fat and less from carbs. The general rule of thumb for gaining weight is eat until you want to puke...then keep eating.

Next, ignore cardio for the time being. You have a finite ability to recover, any conditioning at this point will take away from your ability to gain strength. The most important thing during linear progression is making sure you don't stall. Do whatever it takes to make sure of this.

Thirdly, I noticed you subbed rows in for deadlifts. You need to understand if you do that you are NOT doing the starting strength program. Deadlifts are a HUGE part of it and they are just good your soul.

I assume you have the books Starting Strength and Practical Programming? If you don't, you need to get these yesterday.

Good luck.

[Six]

Yep, I have the SS book and the plan is to follow the program in except for probably changing power cleans for rows.

Deadlifts are listed under workout A.

[Jake Di Vita]

Roger....why sub rows in for cleans?

[Six]

Regarding calories, I wouldn't mind bumping it up a bit more, but I'd hate to gain fat faster than I do muscle.

Being a slightly older beginner, I'm a bit skeptical about being able to sustain a 1lb growth / week.

[Six]

Because as the books says, it's the most technical exercise of the lot. I'd rather do good rows than bad cleans.

I'm looking for a new trainer now, whether they can help me get the form right will dictate which one to go with.

[Leozinho]

Don't neglect cardio, even with strength training, it is important. Otherwise it looks good. Let us know how your progress goes.

Seen "Zombieland"? Rule #1 - Cardio

EDITED TO ADD THAT JAKE BEAT ME TO IT. I was too slow typing this.

Just to give a contrary viewpoint---

Cardio will, however, limit his mass gain some, and depending how hard he goes, prevent his recovery. I did a Starting Strength program for a few months, and squatting three times a week near my 5-rep max was very taxing. Significant amounts of cardio might not be doable, because it will limit his recovery from the heavy lifting sessions.

My experience, which seems pretty common, is that it is harder for me to gain lean mass than it is for me to improve my cardio. I didn't mind putting my cardio on hold for a few months while I added strength and size, knowing I could regain the cardio in a relatively short amount of time. Again, though, the bigger problem with cardio is if it prevents his recovery. Then his progress stalls, defeating the point of the program.

Certainly you can design a program where an untrained individual like the OP can gain lean mass and improve/keep his aerobic capacity at the same time, but if the OP wants to maximize mass gain he should cut or limit his cardio.

Starting Strength and other 3x5 and 5x5 programs have worked for thousands going back a couple of decades, at least. The summary is that it works for the beginner, but intermediate lifters need something with some periodization/deloading in it.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Leozinho

[Jake Di Vita]

Six,

Yes they certainly are more technical, but it is well within your abilities to teach them to yourself. You have the book, you have the internet with countless demonstrations and instructional videos (shoot, there are even videos on Rip's site). I taught myself how to do them. Just start reasonably light, do your research, and you'll be fine. Cleans are an incredibly important movement to know how to do and infinitely more beneficial than rows in this program.

You're 31, which really isn't that old in terms of strength training. You're also over 6 feet tall and 190 pounds. Even if you do gain a little more fat than you do muscle, that isn't that big of a deal. Trust me on this and do it right the first time, you won't regret it. Any excess fat you obtain will melt off when you decide it has become a problem.

Have you done much surfing on the startingstrength website / forums?

[Six]

No on the last part, just got the book a couple weeks ago but the basic program matches what I've wanted to do for a while.

I also know that I'm fortunate in being able to burn fat easily. I guess what I hope is to have a significant muscle > fat gain ratio. If I can put on 10lbs of muscle and a couple pounds of fat, I can live with that. The other way around would suck a bit though.

[Jake Di Vita]

Depending on your genetics, how hard you train, how much you eat, how good your sleep is, etc....you should be able to put on a heck of a lot more than 10 pounds of muscle. I'd expect an equal muscle to fat ratio for people that have decent genetics on their side.

In 4ish months of linear progression I went from 155 to 190 (with about 15 pounds of that being fat), and I slacked off on my eating for the last month. When I decided to trim down a bit again, I lost that 15 pounds of fat in about a month. Fat is pretty easy to lose if you can control what you put in your mouth.

[Six]

Wow, that's a whole lot of gains. I appreciate the feedback, there's so much BS to weed through as a newbie, so it's good to hear from those who've got some actual experience.

I'm really exited about starting a new program (Actually, being able to start a weight program!) and I'm sure I'll make adjustments along the way but plan is to stick as strictly as I can to the SS program and evaluate around May what to do next.

[Jake Di Vita]

I'm excited for you. It's not uncommon for novice trainees on this program to be accused of taking steroids.

Make sure you do some surfing on the starting strength forums btw. In Rip's Q&A section he allows posting of videos that he critiques. I highly recommend you watch the critique videos of movements you have questions on before you ask the question though.

Eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat. If you ever feel hungry, you aren't eating even close to enough.

[Bear23]

Squats, Deadlift, Bench. Abs. Eat.

[Bear23]

Avoid cardio for the time being, it will rob your strength and mass gains. Find a good protein source, i.e. muscle milk or similar product. Avoid soy based protein as it is estrogenic.

[CJDOUBLETAP]

Avoid cardio for the time being, it will rob your strength and mass gains. Find a good protein source, i.e. muscle milk or similar product. Avoid soy based protein as it is estrogenic.

Yeah, I would definitely consider using whey protein and creatine. If you decide to start taking creatine make sure you drink a lot of water.

I second Jake on replacing those calories from carbs with calories from fat...

I would keep the power cleans in instead of the rows. If you aren't comfortable doing power cleans, switch to hang cleans. Hang cleans don't come off of the floor so they are less complicated. Cleans will help your explosiveness and balance. They help lots of different muscle groups too...

Good Luck

[Jake Di Vita]

GOMAD worked wonders for me. Gallon of (whole) Milk A Day.

2600 calories, 128 grams of protein, about equal in fat. That +3 large meals a day will put weight on any skinny guy in a hurry.

[Bill Nesbitt]

Avoid soy based protein as it is estrogenic.

Will it make you look like your avatar?

Sorry, back to the topic.

[Six]

Jake, Milk is truly awesome for a growing boy. Currently I'm looking at half a gallon a day as part of my meal plan.

The plan is 3 meals a day, and 2 shakes with whey which will be pre/post workout on working days, and morning/afternoon snacks on rest days.

For example, lunch might be 16oz milk, Dead animal (6oz chicken breast), Vegetable(1 cup broccoli), starch (1 cup brown rice), 1 fruit (Banana).

Currently I'm in the ballpark of 105gr Fat / 380gr carbs / 255gr protein / 3500kcal.

I can change the animal, starch, veggie, and fruit out and keep everything reasonably consistent, but would I be better off switching the starch at each meal out for protein / fat? Suggestions for replacements?

Thanks,

[Jake Di Vita]

In my opinion, yes.

You can't go wrong with meat, meat, and more meat. I've even been known to do shots of olive oil just to get the extra calories from a great source of fat

[diablodawg]

I did the starting strength program for about a month or so, but wasn't able to dedicate so much time to each workout. I did start Crossfit Football, which has many elements of Starting Strength (squats, deadlifts, bench, and cleans) plus strength and quickness biased metcons. I also do the mainpage WOD and sometimes the CFE WOD, biased towards whichever is harder or is a personal weakness. I'm stronger than I have ever been and have very low bodyfat- even less than when I was doing the typical bodybuilding routines.

[Jake Di Vita]

If you had stuck with linear progression, you'd likely be stronger than you ever thought you could possibly be right now. At least that's how it worked for me.

[diablodawg]

CFFB does have a linear progression model, but not as much as SS. I think its a great compromise- I don't have as much raw strength as with SS-pure, but I am much better at metcon/circuit type workouts than if I did SS solely, IMHO.

[Jake Di Vita]

I'm aware, but as I'm sure we both know, strength is a hell of a lot harder to gain than conditioning. Since you will only be a novice trainee once, why not take advantage of it?

Don't get me wrong, I like the CrossFit Football stuff a lot, especially for our sport. I'm just a big fan of building a good foundation of strength first.