differences in loading .40S&W for Glock versus 1911 / 2011?

[hrt4me]

I have a Glock 22, Glock 35 and STI Tactical 5.0 chambered in .40 S&W.

As a longtime .45ACP loader for my 1911s, I just started loading .40S&W and gather from these forums that there are subtle differences in rounds for the Glock and rounds for the 1911 / 2011 pistols, one factor being the right combination of fast/slow powder dependent on bullet composition and/or weight, and another factor being OAL for reliable feeding in the different pistols. I'm well aware of the notorious Glock bulge and how to properly size that particular brass using either an EGW "U" die, Redding GRX die and/or Lee FCD.

Is there anything else I should consider with regard to the .40 S&W round in a Glock versus a 1911 / 2011?

[G-ManBart]

I have both Glocks and 1911/2011s in .40, but my Glocks almost always get factory ammo, so the way I do things doesn't really apply to your situation. If I was in your situation, and wanted to minimize hassle, the first thing I'd do is find out if the Tactical 5.0 will run reliably with shorter/factory length OAL ammo. If it will, things are much easier. You can use the same basic rules of powder and bullet weight for either .40 loaded long, or loaded to factory OAL. The only real difference is you'll use a smaller powder charge at the shorter OAL than you would for long ammo. The benefits of a heavier bullet, with faster powder will still be the same.

So, if both platforms will work with the same OAL, you can use the same ammo in all three guns. You're going to get some velocity differences, but unless you need to make a specific power factor, it's not a big deal...find a nice middle ground, and crank out a bunch.

If the STI won't run at the shorter OAL, you'll be forced to work up one load that works in the Glocks, and another for the STI....different OAL, and different powder charge...just no real way around that. R,

[Cy Soto]

Is there anything else I should consider with regard to the .40 S&W round in a Glock versus a 1911 / 2011?

Many of us that shoot a .40 S&W 1911 choose to use 10mm magazines and load long. In my case I load my .40 rounds to be used in a 1911 to 1.185" which will only fit in 10mm mags. This helps the rounds feed properly.

Rounds with this long OAL will not fit in .40 S&W Glock magazines so, when I load for these, I have to reduce the OAL to 1.135"

[twodownzero]

My STI Eagle runs fine with factory length ammo. I load long anyway, but if I had any other .40s to load for, I'd probably load shorter and run that load in both.

[hrt4me]

Thanks for the replies. My STI Tactical 5.0 runs fine with factory loads, so I wasn't necessarily planning to load longer for that unless there is a huge benefit...

[Harmon]

i shot 185 precisions and Win 231 in my glock 24 and STI limited gun. same load. 1.135 oal and they shot fine.

this was the most accurate load i found for either gun. 231 may seem old school, but its still a good choice and cheap.

[bugsbear]

I normally shoot my STI Edge in USPSA with 4.7-4.9 grains of titegroup and an oal of 1.200. I think the gun will shoot factory length, 1.135, but I like the longer length. The gun shoots very softly and makes power factor.

I also shoot a Glock 35. They use the same amount of titegroup, but are loaded to 1.135. I could not find my chrono information, but it is my recollection that they were not too far off. The longer barrel in the STI compensates for the longer length of the ammo.

If I shot both at the same time, I would probably try the 1.135 in the STI to make it easier to load. Since I don't shoot the Glock very often, I made up a batch of "short" ammo and now load for the STI as needed for matches.

I suggest that you try long and short to see if (1) they both run through your gun; and (2) you like the feel of one better than the other.

This is why I reload. It allows variations that work for me.

Nels

Edited December 29, 2010 by bugsbear

[G-ManBart]

The longer barrel in the STI compensates for the longer length of the ammo.

You may want to look at your barrels carefully The G35 has a 5.3" barrel, and the STI has a 5" barrel. R,

[hrt4me]

I normally shoot my STI Edge in USPSA with 4.7-4.9 grains of titegroup and an oal of 1.200. I think the gun will shoot factory length, 1.135, but I like the longer length. The gun shoots very softly and makes power factor.

I also shoot a Glock 35. They use the same amount of titegroup, but are loaded to 1.135. I could not find my chrono information, but it is my recollection that they were not too far off. The longer barrel in the STI compensates for the longer length of the ammo.

If I shot both at the same time, I would probably try the 1.135 in the STI to make it easier to load. Since I don't shoot the Glock very often, I made up a batch of "short" ammo and now load for the STI as needed for matches.

I suggest that you try long and short to see if (1) they both run through your gun; and (2) you like the feel of one better than the other.

This is why I reload. It allows variations that work for me.

Nels

Thanks for the reply!

[MarkCO]

Normally I agree with G-man, since he is usually right. However, I disagree on this one.

1911/2011s will take a longer (1.20" or more) OAL allowing you to use a faster powder with less felt recoil at a given major PF than is possible with a Glock. OAL on the Glock .40 must be 1.135" and sometimes less. A slightly slower powder is therefore desireable to keep the peak pressure at the same relative level. An optimized 170 PF load in a 1911/2011 that weighs the same as a Glock also shooting an optimized 170 PF will have less recoil. Some may have difficulty preceiving the difference, but it does exsist. Sorry, just physics.

[G-ManBart]

Normally I agree with G-man, since he is usually right. However, I disagree on this one.

1911/2011s will take a longer (1.20" or more) OAL allowing you to use a faster powder with less felt recoil at a given major PF than is possible with a Glock. OAL on the Glock .40 must be 1.135" and sometimes less. A slightly slower powder is therefore desireable to keep the peak pressure at the same relative level. An optimized 170 PF load in a 1911/2011 that weighs the same as a Glock also shooting an optimized 170 PF will have less recoil. Some may have difficulty preceiving the difference, but it does exsist. Sorry, just physics.

I see people claim that, but I've never seen it backed up by pressure gun data. The closest example I can think of is to compare .40S&W and 10mm with the same bullet and powder. I've sectioned Winchester cases of both, and aside from primer pocket differences, they're the same other than length. Hodgdon's data is pretty interesting (one of the few that consistently shows pressure data). They had 170gr Hornady XTP data for both cartridges using Titegroup (common for the .40 loads we use).

40S&W: 5.0gr at 1.125" shows 1025fps and 32,000psi out of a 4" barrel.

10mm: 6.6gr at 1.260" shows 1232fps and 36,200psi out of a 5" barrel.

If you figure 50-100fps loss for the 4" barrel, that would make it 1075-1125fps at the same pressure. Crank it up another 4,200PSI, and I'm betting it would make up most, if not all, of the 107-157fps shortage. Since we're only talking something like 1.125 to maybe 1.200" or so, rather than 1.125" to 1.260", any amount of more velocity for less pressure would be even less.

I wasn't suggesting that using one load in both guns would be absolutely perfect in either (much less both), but from a practical perspective, it shouldn't be enough difference that it's going to hurt anybody's performance. Oh, to own a pressure gun

[MarkCO]

I see people claim that, but I've never seen it backed up by pressure gun data.

I don't know if I can find the actual data, but when I was trying to blow up Glock barrels in an instrumented pressure fixture, I did prove it to myself.

[G-ManBart]

I see people claim that, but I've never seen it backed up by pressure gun data.

I don't know if I can find the actual data, but when I was trying to blow up Glock barrels in an instrumented pressure fixture, I did prove it to myself.

I'm sure lots of folks would be interested in that. I don't think I've ever suggest that there isn't some difference based on additional case volume, but there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that it's not necessarily a huge difference. We're still trying to move the same object, the same speed, and it's going to take the same amount of energy to do that, either way. That would seem to leave only case/burn efficiency as a significant variable.

Anybody know where I can buy a pressure fixture? R,

[Downrange58]

Is there anything else I should consider with regard to the .40 S&W round in a Glock versus a 1911 / 2011?

Many of us that shoot a .40 S&W 1911 choose to use 10mm magazines and load long. In my case I load my .40 rounds to be used in a 1911 to 1.185" which will only fit in 10mm mags. This helps the rounds feed properly.

Rounds with this long OAL will not fit in .40 S&W Glock magazines so, when I load for these, I have to reduce the OAL to 1.135"

Cy Soto,

How is your load working with the OAL 1.135?

I am new to reloading and I am trying to be cautious. I had thought I had done my research and maybe apparently I haven't done it well enough.

I have loaded and tested a bunch of 200gr billy bullets with 3.3gr of N320 at 1.135 OAL and a .420 crimp for my G23. It has given me an average of 715fps and a 143pf. It cycles well in my pistol and shoots softly. There doesn't seem to be any pressure signs in the brass I pick up and yet I seem to be reading now that I am loading it too short. I have been scouring the web and I can't seem to find much as to whether I am doing something dangerous or not. Any help appreciated! Kent

[Flexmoney]

Kent,

I don't recall that I have loaded any 200g bullets. I know I have not loaded any Billy (or any Moly) bullets.

I might give some insight on Overall Length (OAL), as I see it...

When adjusting OAL,

1st - Be sure that isn't so long that the bullet contacts the rifling of the barrel, when chambered. Which could cause excessive pressure. This is why you can't use "Long 40"...that might be loaded for a 1911 based gun...in a gun based on the smaller 9mm design (like a Glock).

Sometimes the profile of the bullet could play a role here. I doubt you would see that with your 1.135 OAL, but...as I mentioned...I am not familiar with the bullets you are using. Also, if you have a short chambered barrel then you need to double check that your bullet is not contacting the rifling. (some after market barrels come with short chambers, and require gun smith fitting to the gun and to correct the chamber length after fitting)

Of course, you can load the round too short, which can cause a spike in pressure too. Bullet "setback" is the danger here...where the case tension on the bullet is not great enough and the bullet's OAL decreases (by contact with the feed ramp, for example). You can test your rounds for this.

2nd - After the safety issues, I might adjust OAL to maximize the feed characteristics in the particular gun you are using. The round should feed from the magazines and into the chamber well.

3rd - The round must feed well through the magazine. And, how many rounds you have I the magazine can be a factor here. For my major 9 Glock, I was loading long (see below). The magazines would feed fine when I just loaded a few for testing. When I loaded a full big stick, the angle of the round in the mag would change enough to allow the rounds to hang up...and jam.

4th - Generally a longer OAL means less (peak) pressure in the case as the round is ignited. Lower pressure is often desired (especially for Major power factor 40), so many will load to a longer OAL to ease pressure concerns.

- A slight drift, heavier bullets tend to feel softer, but they can also raise pressure. Imagine an infinitely heavy bullet...one that won't budge when the round goes off...all the pressure of the round will then expend it's energy on the weakest link in the chain (brass web, primer pocket, etc.)

All that to say, that 1.135OAL should be fine in your Glock mags and standard Glock chamber. But, double check...since I don't know the shape of that bullet.

And, remember...we are all just guys on the internet. You are responsible for your gun and loads. Learn all you can about reloading. It is good knowledge to have.

[BlueOvalBruin]

I’ve noticed that when I use moly coated lead bullets that I get less leading when I load longer for a given PF. For the shorter rounds I’ll get lead deposits in the freebore on the top side of the barrel (on the opposite side of where the round is resting. During ignition, gas flows around the bullet and cuts into it until the bullet is in the barrel. I’m sure it doesn’t hurt that the pressure is a little lower with the longer OAL, bear creek’s literature said overly high pressures can cause leading.

[Downrange58]

Kent,

I don't recall that I have loaded any 200g bullets. I know I have not loaded any Billy (or any Moly) bullets.

I might give some insight on Overall Length (OAL), as I see it...

When adjusting OAL,

1st - Be sure that isn't so long that the bullet contacts the rifling of the barrel, when chambered. Which could cause excessive pressure. This is why you can't use "Long 40"...that might be loaded for a 1911 based gun...in a gun based on the smaller 9mm design (like a Glock).

Sometimes the profile of the bullet could play a role here. I doubt you would see that with your 1.135 OAL, but...as I mentioned...I am not familiar with the bullets you are using. Also, if you have a short chambered barrel then you need to double check that your bullet is not contacting the rifling. (some after market barrels come with short chambers, and require gun smith fitting to the gun and to correct the chamber length after fitting)

Of course, you can load the round too short, which can cause a spike in pressure too. Bullet "setback" is the danger here...where the case tension on the bullet is not great enough and the bullet's OAL decreases (by contact with the feed ramp, for example). You can test your rounds for this.

2nd - After the safety issues, I might adjust OAL to maximize the feed characteristics in the particular gun you are using. The round should feed from the magazines and into the chamber well.

3rd - The round must feed well through the magazine. And, how many rounds you have I the magazine can be a factor here. For my major 9 Glock, I was loading long (see below). The magazines would feed fine when I just loaded a few for testing. When I loaded a full big stick, the angle of the round in the mag would change enough to allow the rounds to hang up...and jam.

4th - Generally a longer OAL means less (peak) pressure in the case as the round is ignited. Lower pressure is often desired (especially for Major power factor 40), so many will load to a longer OAL to ease pressure concerns.

- A slight drift, heavier bullets tend to feel softer, but they can also raise pressure. Imagine an infinitely heavy bullet...one that won't budge when the round goes off...all the pressure of the round will then expend it's energy on the weakest link in the chain (brass web, primer pocket, etc.)

All that to say, that 1.135OAL should be fine in your Glock mags and standard Glock chamber. But, double check...since I don't know the shape of that bullet.

And, remember...we are all just guys on the internet. You are responsible for your gun and loads. Learn all you can about reloading. It is good knowledge to have.

Flex, I really appreciate the time it took to give me this detailed much needed lesson! Well said that I need to be responsible for my gun and loads and taken to heart! I remember picking up the brass from my last test and finding residual powder stains on the brass that could mean a lack of a sealing around the bullet as ignition happens? I could be way off on that I realize! I am hoping that this and the fact that it is only pushing it at 715fps means I am far under the pressure limits. Again thanks for taking the time!!

[Downrange58]

I’ve noticed that when I use moly coated lead bullets that I get less leading when I load longer for a given PF. For the shorter rounds I’ll get lead deposits in the freebore on the top side of the barrel (on the opposite side of where the round is resting. During ignition, gas flows around the bullet and cuts into it until the bullet is in the barrel. I’m sure it doesn’t hurt that the pressure is a little lower with the longer OAL, bear creek’s literature said overly high pressures can cause leading.

B.O.B,

This kind of describes what I think is happening with my load as I am getting a lot of black powder marks on the outside of my brass when I pick it up. This would make me happy if it means I am running at the low pressure end of the spectrum. I seem to have just a little leading or maybe moly build up in the receiver side of my barrel. Thanks for the knowledge! Kent