redmist10 Posted October 12, 2002 Share Posted October 12, 2002 In reference to Bill's post regarding his excellent finish at the Nationals..... There is a saying...."it's not the gun" Something for us all to ponder, especially when you watch him shoot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 congratulations Bill, yu may get Alex next year. did you repeat as Nat'l Senior Champ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveW Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 Bill, congratulations! When HeadHunter and I came through, we were #4 and # 5 respectively, shooting speedloader fed guns. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted October 13, 2002 Share Posted October 13, 2002 SteveW, Cool, speedloaders rule. tightloop, I only have to take 30 seconds off my time to beat Alex. I think I will start by losing 30 pounds. Then I can move quicker. I was 4th senior. I got beat by some of those blasted flatgunners. GB, I got my load with slight modifications from the Speer #10 Reloading Manual. So if somebody blows up a gun call Speer. Page 362 lists the start Bullseye load for a 146 grain bullet as four point five(4.5) and the max ( plus P) as five point four(5.4) I get a power factor of 125 + with around 4.7 grains of Bullseye. I substituted West Coast 147 grain 9mm bullets. Current reloading manuals do not list this load. I have no signs of pressure at all and cases eject easily. I offer this information in the hope that speedloaders will soon rule. Bill Nesbitt (Edited by BILL at 4:30 pm on Oct. 13, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 Just curious with all the revolver shooters here, I was wondering if any of you are using an older S&W with a recessed cylinder ? Mostly interested if you know of any problems on reloads with dirt, powder etc... getting into the recessed area, and causing problems on a reload ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmist10 Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 Bill, Thanks for the information on the 38spl load. I plan to switch to my 686 and speedloaders for 2003. The 2002 TN state match will be the last time I shoot my 625 for a while unless things don't work out with the 686. I'm hoping to perform a task matrix analysis for both the 686 and 625 and see if there is a difference. I've seen your previous post on the differences (or lack thereof) between auto and revolver....green with envy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 lets not forget, that bill has been shooting for approx 20 years, and has more esperience than quite a few of us combined..... and is incredibally smooth with that revolver!!! redmist, if you want beat us flat gunners, you better stop eating and sleaping and start practicing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmist10 Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 Yea, you just keep poking me with a stick LOL Actually, I was up until 12-midnight last night putting scaled down versions of the IDPA targets on my basement wall..... By Bill's estimation, I'll have to lose over 103 lbs to compete with A. Zimmerman! I don't know if I'm THAT dedicated....but I'm getting there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 good luck, i hear there are some drinks on infomercials that do wonders!!!! you mean you didn't ALREADY have scaled down targets on your walls? damn your behind the curve i've had those there for almost a year and a half now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmist10 Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 HEY! I just started competitive (IDPA) shooting in the summer of 2001. I began shooting a revolver in March of 2002 (Thanks Marmot!). I've done alright for a newbie. Just got my four-gun SS this weekend....it's a start. You're just trying to get me to shoot SSP, lol. You can't pull those hosing techniques with a wheelgun Smoney....well, you can but it really screws you up....speaking from experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 Wayne, None of my revolvers have the recessed chambers. I have had problems in the past with "stuff" getting under the ejector star. Use a clean powder that leaves no residue. I use Bullseye. Also always turn the revolver with the barrel pointing to the sky when ejecting. This has solved my problems. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 Bill I actually never had a problem. My 27 I used for IDPA always worried me about something getting in the the recessed area of the recessed cylinder. But I just kept that recess clean in between stages. My 24 is not recessed. I have been looking for a K frame to start playing with, like you and I discussed over a few emails several months back. Mmany of the 19's I have seen had recessed cylinders, and I think I want to stay away from that this time, and get something a little newer, or a 38 sp which was never recessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveW Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 Bill, Do you have any accuracy issues using 9mm bullets? I'm curious as to whether the .003 difference is that much of a difference. In discussions with HeadHunter, he got on to me because my loads were too hot. I am running 5.2 grains of W231 under a 158 gr, RNJ. Velocities out of a 3" 686 are around 890 fps. That is a 140 PF. My logic behind it is the recoil is almost identical to my carry ammo. Your thoughts would be appreciated. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 Steve, That is a interesting sounding load. Is this from the book, or a little experimenting ? Also since you brought it up, how hard is it to come by a 3" 686, pretty rare aren't they ? Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveW Posted October 19, 2002 Share Posted October 19, 2002 Wayne, I'll answer the easy question first. This is the second 3" 686 I've owned. The first one had been ported, and while it made for an interesting toy in the local matches, with flames shooting in all directions, it was not very practical for a carry peice, nor is it legal in IDPA. That one I sold to get the second one. Both are the old Customs Service guns. They are still out there, you just have to look a bit. They are identifiable by a CS-X under the 686 stamp where the crane closes up. You will also notice there is no 686-X on these guns, they were a special contract run for US Customs. I came up with the load by doing a little bit of research and a lot of experimenting. According to the Winchester manual I referenced, the top load for .38 Spl LSWC, 158 gr was 4.6 gr of W231. The bottom load for .357 was 5.6 gr. I started at 5.6 and worked my way down. The similarity of recoil between that and my carry ammo came about purely by accident. I was shooting a local PSL match (gasp!) and reached in my vest pocket for another speedloader, noticing as I dropped the rounds in they were my carry stuff. I noticed very little difference in recoil. There is however, quite a bit of difference in noise and flash. If I remember correctly, Brian's forum is not set up for discussion of defensive issues. I only include this to explain my views while shooting IDPA. I use my carry gun, holster, speedloaders and clothing in the matches. The only concession I make is I reload my own ammo. I also cheat a little bit on bullet shape. Other than that, I approach each stage as practically as possible. If you go back and look at the scores from this year, you will see how that placed me competitively. No matter, I went out there to have fun, and to meet a few personal goals, not to amaze the world by beating Alex Z. Good thing too, as I would have failed in that one. Steve (Edited by SteveW at 6:58 pm on Oct. 19, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 SteveW, Your loads are definately in the PlusP range in "old" reloading manuals. Are you using 38 special brass? You want to make sure those don't get shot in a 38 instead of your 357 mag. They will probably speed up wear in a 38. Are your carry loads 38's or 357? Why not load up 357 brass for IDPA? I don't have any problems using the 9mm bullets. My 3 inch model 10 will do head shots at 25 yards. That's all I need for IDPA. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveW Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 Bill, Yes, I am using 38 Spl brass. I have to be careful when reloading, the cheaper brands are only good for one or two reloadings, then the case mouths start to split. I have a pretty good collection of Winchester military brass, and that seems to hold up pretty good. The only 38 I own anymore is with my Dad. I don't have to worry about mixing loads anymore. My carry loads are 38 +P+. I use 38's because I feel they will do the job as well as 357, without the flash, noise, and recoil. 38's are also a lot faster to reload. It takes me about one half second longer to reload 357s than 38s. Either on the street, or in a match, that is not a good thing. As a side note, I seriously considered bring 100 or so rounds of 357 to the Nationals. I used to carry 357s with 38s for reloads. I got too lazy to reset my reloader though. I will have to give the 9mm bullets a try. Did you go with those bullets for reload speed, or because of your load data? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 SteveW, I'm going to agree with Headhunter. Those loads are pretty hot to be putting in 38 brass. You are splitting cases after 2 loadings. I usually get many loadings from 38 brass. Also the Winchester military brass is thicker. That is why it lasts longer. You are probably also getting higher pressures from the military brass. Not a good thing. One of your earlier posts said you used load data for a LSWC and you are shooting jacketed bullets. Jacketed bullets also raise pressure. I understand why you want to duplicate your carry load but I'll bet you can find a load in the manuals that will do that. Good luck. The reason I tried the 9mm bullets was because I already had several thousand on hand to load 9mm's. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 i've shot 9mm's in my 38's for quite some time, even a few in 357 mag.. but don't seem to work quite as well in those some times. 9mm bullets especially west coast RN 147's are smooth loading. not to mention the same bullet weight is generally cheaper... not sure why. bulk 9mm 115 grn FMJ's are the cheapest, not gamiest but for practice.. a little extra flip won't hurt. generally i love revolvers for "trigger pressing" just going out and plinking with the guys. they aren't match accurate for bullseye, but for IDPA which is rarely over 15 yards... works great. ENOUGH revolver talk, i'm starting to dream back to yester-year i don't have the time to practice with a revolver! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Steve, thanks for the info on the 3" 686. I saw one once used for sale, do not know if it was the CS version. I did see a new unfired 3" Model 10 yesterday that was real nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmist10 Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Smoney, Come back to the dark side...... REVO REVO REVO! Shot the TN state match on Saturday. Placed second in SS. Not a bad start to my SS/SSR career, however, they had me listed in MM even though I had it cleared on Tuesday that I moved up...hope they fix it on the score sheets. Off all week. Thanks for the load info guys. I'm going to retire the 625 for a while and concentrate on the 686 for 2003. First loadings will be with the 147g 9mm bullets. Bill, where did you say you found the deep style CompIII holders? Blade-tech said they only make one type and it's not deeper than the CompII type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Redmist10... what is the dark side, everyone wants to be the dark side, glock shooters, 1911 shooters, now revolver shooters......... i'm on MY side, which in the next year will include atleast 2 more M class cards in IDPA and hopefully a GM card in uspsa.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveW Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 Bill, After going back and rereading my post, I realized it was misleading. Ninety percent of my brass is scrounged at the range. Ninety percent of that is from the remanufactured ammo the range I shoot at is so proud of. I have no idea how many times it has been shot before I get my grubby little mitts on it. Correct me if I am wrong but, if the cases are not swelling so much in the cylinders that they are hard to get out, in other words, I can operate the ejector rod with my finger, isn't that a good guide that the loads are not too hot? Wayne, You are welcome for the info. If I run across another 3" 686, I'll let you know. I am trying to teach myself how to shoot with a 65. I have kind of spoiled myself with the 686, and now I'm having to relearn trigger control. smoney, Revolver shooting is the light, no the dark side. Come to the light! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 "My carry loads are 38 +P+. I use 38's because I feel they will do the job as well as 357, without the flash, noise, and recoil." Are you sure? The 110 and 115-gr. +P+ .38 is basically a .357 Magnum in a .38 Special case. Ballistics are equivalent to the 110-gr. .357 Magnum. Wear and tear on the gun are such that, personally, I wouldn't fire a lot of them in a K-frame. But then I'm biased, having split the forcing cone on a Smith M13 after firing almost exactly 1,000 rounds of full-power .357. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveW Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Duane, I am very sure about the "flash, noise, and recoil" portion of that statement. At least when comparing it to the .357 ammo I have tried, HydraShoks, CorBons, Hornady XTP, and a couple of others that I cannot remember off the top of my head. Of the 357 I tried, the Hydrashoks actually had less flash. Bear in mind I still carry a 686. The L Frames were designed to handle a steady diet of 357s day in and out. I am still trying to transition from one gun to the other. Sorry to hear about your 13. Did you get S&W to fix it for you? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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