38 Super vs Supercomp vs TJ

[Airzoo Guy]

Can loads listed in the various manuals for 38 Super be safely used with 38 Supercomp or 38 TJ brass? Or, do the latter two cases have a large enough reduction in case capacity that charges need to be reduced? Can anyone recommend a good load for 38 Supercomp or 38 TJ brass?

Thanks, John

[NogNog]

The answer to your first question is YES.

YOu will have to give us more information of the gun you are shooting the 38 SC load in order for us to be able to give valid suggestions. Give us more detail of the build of the gun, bbl length, bbl make (hybrid or non hybrid), compensator used in the gun.

Anyways, let's start on this link: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=52113&hl=115+MGB+load

Disclaimer: The data described in this link may not be applicable to your own open gun. Load with caution.

Cheers

Nog2

Edited October 7, 2010 by NogNog

[CocoBolo]

The answer to your first question is YES.

YOu will have to give us more information of the gun you are shooting the 38 SC load in order for us to be able to give valid suggestions. Give us more detail of the build of the gun, bbl length, bbl make (hybrid or non hybrid), compensator used in the gun.

Anyways, let's start on this link: http://www.brianenos...hl=115+MGB+load

Disclaimer: The data described in this link may not be applicable to your own open gun. Load with caution.

Cheers

Nog2

Nog2 well said. Two open guns that look alike behave differently. As far as TJ SC or +P I have not noticed much difference if any in velocity with he same load. So while the brass may behave similarly the guns can be very different. And the big one is your extractor if its not tuned for SC/TJ you are going to have some issues, and it goes the other way as well my guns are tuned for SC/TJ and +P will only run about 98% reliable thru the gun with an occasional failure to go into battery, extractor too tight.

If you are loading on an XL650 SC/TJ use the 223 shell plate and +P will not fit in the shell plate so that is the way to week +P out of your SC/TJ brass. If you use the 9 mm shell plate it will eat +P or SC/T.

Edited to correct misuse of Ejector should have been extractor and add Extractors in this example are AFTEC.

Edited October 7, 2010 by CocoBolo

[shooterbenedetto]

I have tuned 3 different extractor for 3 different brass.

used same ejector. My 2cents.

[G-ManBart]

Can loads listed in the various manuals for 38 Super be safely used with 38 Supercomp or 38 TJ brass? Or, do the latter two cases have a large enough reduction in case capacity that charges need to be reduced? Can anyone recommend a good load for 38 Supercomp or 38 TJ brass?

Thanks, John

It depends. SC or TJ tend to need about .2gr less powder to make the same velocity. So, a load that's right at the limit (smearing primers) might be enough to start blowing primers if you were to switch to SC or TJ. Drop down a couple of tenths, and work back up.

Two of my guns are set up for 38SC and they basically won't feed Super at all. The gun that's set up for Super will chamber SC, but probably would be erratic at extracting and ejecting (haven't even bothered to try). R,

[G-ManBart]

And the big one is your ejector if its not tuned for SC/TJ you are going to have some issues

I know you meant the extractor, just pointing it out so nobody gets confused...same ejector will be fine. R,

[dansy]

In my gum TJ took a little less for the same PF...that could be due to a thicker casing...I never really adjusted the powder after doing the test since it's too little going from SC to the TJ this was with the Aftec extractor...so no need to adjust that either.

[CocoBolo]

And the big one is your ejector if its not tuned for SC/TJ you are going to have some issues

I know you meant the extractor, just pointing it out so nobody gets confused...same ejector will be fine. R,

Yes, thank you Bart. I cut the end of my left thumb with a box cutter while whacking the foam in my Pelican to get #2 gun in it. You would think it wouldn't affect my typing but it sure does. And of course picking the wrong word which I did. Extractor not Ejector.

[Airzoo Guy]

Well, you folks are going to laugh at me, but what the hell...it won't be the first time. I'm not loading for an "open pistol" per se, although I think either of these guns could be shot in that division if one wanted to. I have two 38 Supers...one is an Enhanced Colt 1911 with a 5" ported barrel, and the other is a EAA Limited Pro. The Colt also has a 9x23Win barrel for it, and the extractor has been tuned so that it works with 9x23...therefore it seems it should be fine with 38 Supercomp or 38 TJ as well. As I understand it, the EAA pistols come with extractors set up for rimmed 38 Super, and I've looked at Henning's site and understand how to tune the extractor on this gun to work with Supercomp or TJ (on the EAA, I've also replaced the recoil spring guide with Henning's, I've replaced the factory hammer spring with a lightest spring Henning recommends for a DA/SA pistol, and I've got stiffer recoil springs to go in if needed). I'm interested in 38 Super loads for these two guns, using Supercomp or TJ brass for their better mag stack/feeding performance, with the understanding that the EAA may be able to take hotter loads due to the ramped/supported barrel (the Colt has a non-ramped barrel). I want hot loads, but not necessarily loads that push things to the ragged edge of failure.

So, with that information, can anyone suggest a place to start?

Thanks,

John

[G-ManBart]

A gun with the extractor set up to run 9x23 may not run SC or TJ well at all. The rim diameter on 9x23 is .394" compared to .386" for SC/TJ (Super is .400).

Why not just use Super brass in the first place and skip trying to make something work that really isn't intended to be used that way?

Short of that, pick whatever Super load you want to try, back off 10% from max, maybe shade it a tenth or two on the low side for the different case volume, and work your way up.

VV lists data for .38 Super Lapua, which is the equivalent of SC/TJ, so you can go with those numbers if you're using VV powder. R,

[dansy]

The Open load are not hot just to be HOT......our loads are hot because of the requirement to have LOTS of GAS for the compensator/barrel holes.....having a Open loads in a non compensated gun would be like shooting a 40SW with 200 PF (just a guess here I never tried anything like that) but that would be neither comfortable or safe to do....if you use my loads with and non compensated gun....the pressure would be pretty high for no use what so ever....my gun is compensate and has 2 barrel holes...for my next season it will be the V12 Eric

What I think is you shouldn't used any Open Loads...but start from a very low side and develop your own load for what ever you are trying to accomplish, while I had a look at other people loads when I did my own...I still develop my own with my Gun's and a good chrono of course that was to specifically shot IPSC Open...so I required 165PF (160+5 safe zone)

What are you trying to accomplish?

[Airzoo Guy]

Why not just use Super brass in the first place and skip trying to make something work that really isn't intended to be used that way?

I don't understand this comment/question? The whole idea behind rimless 38 Super brass is to increase feeding reliability. Why wouldn't I want to do that? Henning goes to great lengths on his site to recommend (at least for the EAA guns) the use of rimless brass for just that reason.

You may be right regarding the 1911, though...the guy I bought it from shot factory rimmed 38 Super and factory 9x23 in the respective barrels...that gun's extractor may not work well with the rimless 38 Super.

What I'm trying to accomplish is getting the most I can get out of the 38 Super round...most factory loads don't take full advantage of the round's potential, as I'm sure you well know, whether it be for hunting or self-defense.

John

[Powder Finger]

What I'm trying to accomplish is getting the most I can get out of the 38 Super round...most factory loads don't take full advantage of the round's potential, as I'm sure you well know, whether it be for hunting or self-defense.

If you want to hunt with a super then just load the 170 sierra.

[dansy]

Why not just use Super brass in the first place and skip trying to make something work that really isn't intended to be used that way?

I don't understand this comment/question? The whole idea behind rimless 38 Super brass is to increase feeding reliability. Why wouldn't I want to do that? Henning goes to great lengths on his site to recommend (at least for the EAA guns) the use of rimless brass for just that reason.

You may be right regarding the 1911, though...the guy I bought it from shot factory rimmed 38 Super and factory 9x23 in the respective barrels...that gun's extractor may not work well with the rimless 38 Super.

What I'm trying to accomplish is getting the most I can get out of the 38 Super round...most factory loads don't take full advantage of the round's potential, as I'm sure you well know, whether it be for hunting or self-defense.

John

Correct me if I'm wrong but the 38 Super and variant (SC/TJ) were design for Open gun because of the compensator and barrel hole requirement for more gas, so there was a requirement for a longer cartridge. Reliabilities can be add with any almost any caliber....now again for race gun SC is better because at the rate we fire the rounds there is less chance of hanging especially in a super full mag...for EAA they only thing is 9mm doesn't work well in large frame at less for now...and since the mag's tend to be a little smaller in capacity compare to the SVI/STI why loose one more round by using Super since Super Comp is the same price...

By all mean SC is a super nice round to load and use...a little expense when you have to leave it at most match..but that is another subject all together... Have Fun

[Powder Finger]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the 38 Super and variant (SC/TJ) were design for Open gun because of the compensator and barrel hole requirement for more gas, so there was a requirement for a longer cartridge. Reliabilities can be add with any almost any caliber....now again for race gun SC is better because at the rate we fire the rounds there is less chance of hanging especially in a super full mag...for EAA they only thing is 9mm doesn't work well in large frame at less for now...and since the mag's tend to be a little smaller in capacity compare to the SVI/STI why loose one more round by using Super since Super Comp is the same price...

if I follow you right the main reason was because of the double row hi-cap mags.

The 38 Super would sometimes have their rims hang on each other as the top round was fed forward. That's when the 9X23,comp,TJ, ETC.. evolved.

In the begining the round was used with single port comp's (or no comp), then the more popular it got the bigger the comp got and the slower the powder most used got. So i guess i would say the Gas/Comp relationship was the by product of experimenting with the cartridge.

The atavantage at first was 2 more rounds (single stack)

[Airzoo Guy]

Correct...in a single-stack I don't think regular (rimmed) 38 Super is much of an issue. But in double-stack mags, as I understand it, there is a definite advantage to the rimless variety (be it supercomp or TJ). I'm certain you can shoot hot loads out of a non-comped gun, although the amount of powder to get a given velocity may well be different from a comped gun as was mentioned above. As was noted above, a hot load for a comped gun may be too much for a non-comped gun...but the hot loads were developed to make major, not just to make a comp work correctly.

[dansy]

Agree better explain then I did above..