Zero 180grn HP for self defense?

[Justsomeguy]

I was at the range today and had a variety of ammo I was burning up so I could use the cases for more "standard loads" for major and minor .40. One of the loads I had about 50 of was a Zero HP over 7grns of Longshot. I was also shooting some Hornady XTP's over about 5.8grns of Silhouette. I looked at the bullets and damned if they didn't look like twins of each other. The 7grn Longshot load with the Zeros were going about 1100fps out of an XDm with a 4.5" barrel, were very accurate and not punishing to shoot at all, and in fact felt better than most defense ammo (you can go up to 8.0grns of Longshot in a .40)! The same 7grn load will produce about 1060fps in my 4" XD carry gun. I was wondering if anyone has done any testing in ballistic gel with the Zero's to see how they do as a defense bullet for expansion. They look just like the XTP's which are a pretty good bullet to carry around, though I know that there are a lot of factors involved in making a reliably expanding bullet. Has anyone tested these for expansion in any media? My outdoor USPSA range will not allow bringing anything but paper or steel targets onto the range or I would test them with wetpack myself.

[CocoBolo]

My attorney advised me strongly against using ammo I loaded in my self defense guns. He said that this would be used against me in court, with obvious statements that I loaded them with intention to kill the scumbag. So buy factory self defense ammo.

[BigEdJr]

I'd have to agree with CocoBolo. When I took my CCW course they recommended finding out what the local law enforcement uses, then buy and use that. That way if you ever do end up in court you can say that if the police/sheriff etc. use it, it must be OK.

[G-ManBart]

Loading your own for self-defense is bad ju-ju, and the Zero bullets aren't intended and tested for expansion, penetration etc. First off, you and I can't load ammo that's as reliable as an OEM can...period, end of story. Forget all the Rambo versus performance/accuracy issues, and it all comes back to reliability. The link below is to an article by a guy that really knows what he's talking about when it comes to duty ammo. It's no coincidence that many of the preferred choices, have been, or currently are, issued by federal law enforcement agencies who do amazing amounts of ammo testing. I second the idea of using either what the local PD/Sherrif/etc carry, or one selected by a federal agency. When asked, you can always say "hey, if it's good enough for X, it should be good enough for me". Work up a load with the Zeros to the same velocity (likely the same impact point) and use that for practice only....carry the real deal.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Out of all the ballistics research I've seen, nothing comes close to the Winchester Q4355 load (also listed in the article). The commercial version is the bonded PDX1:

http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/supreme-elite/bonded-pdx1/Pages/S40SWPDB1.aspx

Edited September 8, 2010 by G-ManBart

[GrumpyOne]

+100 to all the above statements.

[Justsomeguy]

Loading your own for self-defense is bad ju-ju, and the Zero bullets aren't intended and tested for expansion, penetration etc. First off, you and I can't load ammo that's as reliable as an OEM can...period, end of story. Forget all the Rambo versus performance/accuracy issues, and it all comes back to reliability. The link below is to an article by a guy that really knows what he's talking about when it comes to duty ammo. It's no coincidence that many of the preferred choices, have been, or currently are, issued by federal law enforcement agencies who do amazing amounts of ammo testing. I second the idea of using either what the local PD/Sherrif/etc carry, or one selected by a federal agency. When asked, you can always say "hey, if it's good enough for X, it should be good enough for me". Work up a load with the Zeros to the same velocity (likely the same impact point) and use that for practice only....carry the real deal.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Out of all the ballistics research I've seen, nothing comes close to the Winchester Q4355 load (also listed in the article). The commercial version is the bonded PDX1:

http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/supreme-elite/bonded-pdx1/Pages/S40SWPDB1.aspx

Thank you all for your responses...

I understand and for the most part agree with all of you as to carrying ammunition used by local or perhaps even Federal law enforcement personnel. I also agree with Gman that OEM ammo is generally the most reliable because of the amount of testing and preparation such ammo goes through. I have not, on the other hand, heard of, read about, or been able to find by searching, any case where a person was convicted of shooting another wrongfully simply because of the ammunition he or she choose to use at the time. It's either a good shoot or it isn't! That said, I didn't live this long by rolling the dice every time there was a questionable choice to be made in life.

All that aside, I assume there has never been any ballistic testing done on the Zero HP 180grn bullet in .40 caliber as to its effectiveness or similarity to an XTP Hornady slug of the same configuration. That's too bad and perhaps even incredible! There are a lot of folks out there who look at stuff and go "hmmm... that might be useful!" I was just curious about it as you could lay them side by side and not be able to tell the difference. Human targets are not the only ones that move out there, and the possible use of such a thing on any number of other animated medium sized critters is a possibility as well. Don't get me wrong, I don't hunt (I'm a vegetarian after all, and have been for 40 years!), but the question is still pertinent. Who knows what in the wide world might need to be dispatched at some point or other, and the preferred "man stopper" round might not be ready to hand, whereas several hundred to several thousand reloads might be, some of which could be topped with Zero HP's. Heck, for that matter, there are Montana Gold's, Precision Delta's, and even Berry hollow points that are loaded by the millions at any given time, and you would think SOMEONE had shot a few of them into at least some water jugs and said... "hey, these are like/not like the "XYZ" premium hollow points I bought last week!" That's all I'm saying.

It might be nice for someone, somewhere, to know about this and not have to spend $100 to buy some premium ammunition, test it for function and accuracy, chrono it out of his or her particular pistol, and have to repeat the process every year (gotta rotate that ammo you know!), just because some rabid skunk, vicious dog (I like dogs by the way...), or God forbid, two legged critter up to and including a Sasquatch (those are a protected species here in Oregon now, believe it or not...) might appear at their door. But hell... those people in such circumstances probably just use cast bullets anyway!

*Note: some of that last bit was intended as sorta lighthearted and not as so don't get out the pitchforks and torches!

[SmittyFL]

My attorney advised me strongly against using ammo I loaded in my self defense guns. He said that this would be used against me in court, with obvious statements that I loaded them with intention to kill the scumbag. So buy factory self defense ammo.

I wonder if that's ever really been used against a lawful person in court. We've all heard it forever but why would it really matter? I think it's more likely just something someone made up and everyone else just repeats it.

Kinda like no swimming for an hour after eating.

Not busting on you Coco, just thinking out loud.

[BigEdJr]

My attorney advised me strongly against using ammo I loaded in my self defense guns. He said that this would be used against me in court, with obvious statements that I loaded them with intention to kill the scumbag. So buy factory self defense ammo.

I wonder if that's ever really been used against a lawful person in court. We've all heard it forever but why would it really matter? I think it's more likely just something someone made up and everyone else just repeats it.

Kinda like no swimming for an hour after eating.

Not busting on you Coco, just thinking out loud.

Well sometimes old wives tales are true. I had a friend drown in a lake soon after he ate lunch because he cramped up. So take that for what's it's worth.

As far as the original question, I would say yes that it might be a "good shoot" by law enforcement, but you have to consider the civil action that WILL be taken against you by the perp's family, ACLU, NAACP, Whatever Group Dislikes you.... It is that situation that you would need to be concerned with.

Remember, in a civil trial you must testify... there is no "I plead the 5th".

You can do what you want, but I would stay away from it. I also think that that is the reason why there are no specs on reloading components released by the companies. I am sure they do not want the liability of having a lawsuit brought against them.

[Flexmoney]

First off, you and I can't load ammo that's as reliable as an OEM can...period, end of story.

Hmmmm...

My experience is that my ammo runs better than most every factory ammo that I have tried. (though...I haven't tried much of the high end SD ammo) And, my ammo is likely to be handled more, thus inspected more.

Plus, I KNOW where me and my gun hit with my ammo...because I have shot 10's and 10's of thousands of rounds with it...in my gun.

[eta] Most all of my 10's of thousands of 40 and 9mm have been with Zero hollow point bullets. fwiw

[al503]

I've never understood the 'don't use your reloads...' if the shoot is ruled justified.

Criminal Charges: unless there is a statute/ordinance, etc., that bans/outlaws handloads for SD, what is the District Attorney going to charge you with? "Your honor, the defendant shot and killed the deceased, with bullets that are even more deadly than just your regular store bought deadly bullets."

Civil case: "Your honor, the defendant shot my client's son (or whoever) with handloaded bullets that have been tested to be much more powerful than regular off the shelf bullets."

Defendant's attorney: "Why did you shoot the deceased?" "Because he had a knife and came at me and my family (points at his family in the courtroom). It was either him or me or my family and I wouldn't be able to live with myself if my wife or kids were butchered up."

I may be all wet but can anyone point out a single actual case where the DA or whoever brought criminal charges or a civil complaint against a shooter for handloads, where the shoot was justified? And if they did, who prevailed?

[Corey]

I carry nothing but factory ammo for self defense purposes and every box i have says Law enforcement on it. Pretty hard for a lawyer to argue i had malicious intent when its ammo that those who serve and protect us also carry

[G-ManBart]

First off, you and I can't load ammo that's as reliable as an OEM can...period, end of story.

Hmmmm...

My experience is that my ammo runs better than most every factory ammo that I have tried. (though...I haven't tried much of the high end SD ammo) And, my ammo is likely to be handled more, thus inspected more.

Plus, I KNOW where me and my gun hit with my ammo...because I have shot 10's and 10's of thousands of rounds with it...in my gun.

[eta] Most all of my 10's of thousands of 40 and 9mm have been with Zero hollow point bullets. fwiw

My comment about reliability was more narrow. Any given gun can be more or less reliable from a feeding perspective, with factory ammo. From the standpoint of "it always goes boom when I press the trigger", we simply aren't going to be able to match factory ammo. I watch hundreds of thousands of factory ammo get shot each year and when we have one that's a dud, it's extremely unusual. As someone who's RO'd major matches, I'm guessing you've seen a fair share of ammo that didn't go bang, when it should have (I certainly have). There might be a lot of reasons why that happens, but it does, frequently.

None of that removes the responsibility of making sure you know exactly where you gun hits with any ammo you carry in it, so that's equal regardless of which you chose.

We recently did some body armor testing and shot 9mm 124gr +P FMJ, 9mm 147gr Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Q4355 Ranger Bonded JHPs, and Remington .45acp 230gr Golden Saber into a used vest. All of the hollow points expanded nicely. We then put a round of .38SC 115gr Montana Gold JHP at 1500fps (out of my Open gun) into the body armor....no expansion, just deformation. I know the thread is about the Zero bullets, but from the look of them, they're not really designed to expand like true self-defense ammo would. R,

[Justsomeguy]

First off, you and I can't load ammo that's as reliable as an OEM can...period, end of story.

Hmmmm...

My experience is that my ammo runs better than most every factory ammo that I have tried. (though...I haven't tried much of the high end SD ammo) And, my ammo is likely to be handled more, thus inspected more.

Plus, I KNOW where me and my gun hit with my ammo...because I have shot 10's and 10's of thousands of rounds with it...in my gun.

[eta] Most all of my 10's of thousands of 40 and 9mm have been with Zero hollow point bullets. fwiw

My comment about reliability was more narrow. Any given gun can be more or less reliable from a feeding perspective, with factory ammo. From the standpoint of "it always goes boom when I press the trigger", we simply aren't going to be able to match factory ammo. I watch hundreds of thousands of factory ammo get shot each year and when we have one that's a dud, it's extremely unusual. As someone who's RO'd major matches, I'm guessing you've seen a fair share of ammo that didn't go bang, when it should have (I certainly have). There might be a lot of reasons why that happens, but it does, frequently.

None of that removes the responsibility of making sure you know exactly where you gun hits with any ammo you carry in it, so that's equal regardless of which you chose.

We recently did some body armor testing and shot 9mm 124gr +P FMJ, 9mm 147gr Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Q4355 Ranger Bonded JHPs, and Remington .45acp 230gr Golden Saber into a used vest. All of the hollow points expanded nicely. We then put a round of .38SC 115gr Montana Gold JHP at 1500fps (out of my Open gun) into the body armor....no expansion, just deformation. I know the thread is about the Zero bullets, but from the look of them, they're not really designed to expand like true self-defense ammo would. R,

Hi again G-man!

See... that's the kind of thing I was looking for. A test of one kind or another of some of these bullets that are hollowpoints but not mainstream defense ammo. Again... I pretty much agree with you on the reliability of MOST OEM defense ammo. Shipping and storage conditions also can become factors. Stuff handled 50 times by being "pawed over" by various consumers at popular retail ammunition outlets may NOT be as reliable as stuff shipped directly to some law enforcement agency and only handled when it is distributed for testing or carry. What THEY get (meaning LEO's) is not the same as what WE get because of the channels it must go through.