Shooter Grrl Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 For some reason, I was under the impression that a field course could NOT specify the order of engagement (shoot all the paper, then go back and shoot all the steel). Can someone set me straight on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 You must have been reading that silly Freestyle rule 1.1.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Shooter Grrl, The following IPSC rule would allow the target order to be specified: 1.1.5.1 Level I and Level II matches are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements or round count limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 ...not required to comply strictly... The biggest loophole phrase in the rulebook. (respond carefully...I don't want to have to type what I really think. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted February 19, 2004 Author Share Posted February 19, 2004 USPSA does NOT HAVE numbered match levels listed in our rule book... can I DRL them to death that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Flex, What part of "not required to strictly comply" don't you understand? The phrasing seems simple enough to me, as it provides an exception to the main rule above it. Shooter Grrl, I understand the USPSA is adopting the IPSC match levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted February 19, 2004 Author Share Posted February 19, 2004 I HATE THAT RULE Only whiny *ss shooters would need a loophole big enough to drive 5 semis through! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 not required to comply strictly can also be written as can do whatever crazy stuff they want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 My dear Kath, I could be way off the mark here, but I'm not feeling the love today. Can you please explain your objections to the exception for Level I and II matches, hopefully using a font size of 10 or smaller? Just screaming "I hate it" doesn't give me much insight as a rule writer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted February 19, 2004 Author Share Posted February 19, 2004 As a rule writer, Unca Vinny - ya done good! FINALLY! It frosts my butt that that one stupid line gives local clubs the authority to ignore all that wonderful great awesome rule writing ya done! Erik Warren expressed it pretty well "can do whateverthehell they want" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Kath, The exception was continued (not newly written) because many (if not most) Level I and Level II matches are "training" matches held at Club level (and possibly Section level in the USA), and the demand was to retain the flexibility which has existed for many years before the current 2004 Edition of the IPSC rulebook was published. Consider round count. Some smaller clubs simply don't have enough bays to set up many stages, so they want the freedom to have, say, only two or three stages but each with 40 or more rounds. Also many smaller clubs simply don't have the space to set up "shoot 'em when you see 'em" stages, so they need the flexibility to dictate target engagement. Anyway, sorry you feel so strongly against the rule, but no matter how we do it, somebody would be unhappy, but we felt it was far more important to place higher demands and restrictions on larger matches with respect to course design but, for example, our safety rules apply across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 Anyway, sorry you feel so strongly against the rule, but no matter how we do it, somebody would be unhappy, but we felt it was far more important to place higher demands and restrictions on larger matches with respect to course design but, for example, our safety rules apply across the board. I want to use local matches as training for big matches... but if local matches don't have to follow the same rules, how can I? Put in your notes for the next revision to specify that Level 1 and 2 matches can circumvent round count, number of stages, types of stages and can use boxes instead of stating that they do not have to comply with the entire rulebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Vince, I would add something like this: Every effort possible should be made to make stages at Level 1 and Level 2 match 'freestyle". As I have said before, some clubs don't have the resources (props, space, worker-types, etc.) to always put on a freestyle match. But, some just don't make the effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I think it is a nice loophole which should not be abused and is phrased quite well. I do wonder how people can find so much time to fight over sovereignty, water rights and which God is best when we have so much flexibility in match structure! From the USPSA 14th edition Rule Book: APPENDIX A IPSC Match Levels (*) Requirements - must be met. (**) Recommendations - should be met but all are not absolutely necessary for attaining the level. LEVEL I Match (type: local club match) Requirement:(*) Must follow IPSC rules Recommendations:(**) Minimum of 28 rounds Minimum of 1 stage Minimum of 10 competitors Course of Fire approval (local delegate) Match Rating: 1 point LEVEL II Match (type: inter-club match) Requirements:(*) IPSC rules Competitors must be IPSC members Match Director Certified officials Course of Fire approval (authorized local delegate) Recommendations:(**) Minimum of 75 rounds Minimum of 5 stages Minimum of 50 competitors Chronograph Match Rating: 2 points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 Cool AikiDale, now go read US APPENDIX A for the USPSA Match levels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Well I am at work (I hate this shift, it make me much slower during the day) and I quoted that from the online USPSA 14th Edition Rule Book. There is no US Appendix A. I'll check the little red book when I get home....Are USPSA and IPSC match levels different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 Yeah, the US Appendix A is the very next page after the IPSC Match levels In our 14th edition, we have approved, sanctioned and tournament levels. I tried to copy it but just ended up with gibberish. The problem I have is that MANY local clubs DO ABUSE it... it appears to me that Flex and Erik Warren have both encountered the same problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Kath, Flex, Erik et al., I feel (even from the other side of the ocean) that, if some clubs are abusing of the possibilities granted by what you call loophole, it is not a matter of the rule, rather of how to enforce it. My vibe is that it should be a matter to be settled by area coordinators to have local matches and clubs not to abuse of that specific rule. Just my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Feel free to explain to me how to enforce it, I could use the advise (especially since there is such a big loop hole). I'm the new Section Coordinator for Ohio, and this is going to be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 What do I do when I go to a match that has illegal stages? Not a thing, usually. What am I going to do, ask USPSA to kick out the club? As has been said here before, you don't want to run off the few stage designers out there building stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Flex, if the USPSA rulebook has the same wording as IPSC one for rule 1.1.5.1, taking it literally it means that the freestyle or round count rules can be slightly relaxed for Level I and II matches. This doesn't mean that the match organizers are free to do whatever they feel like. If a stage procedure says you have to shoot targets in a special order, or from a specific position only, the match director better explain me what safety or other critical issue brought him to require that specific procedure, invoking rule 1.1.5.1; lacking this explaination, it is my feeling that the stage is not compliant with the rulebook. I'll try to be more specific with the following example: a stage has three targets some 12 metres at 30° left of the starting position in full view even when the competitor has already left the start position. The stage procedure requires to shoot the targets from the start position only, not on the move or from a further position. The match director explains that if you shoot those targets as required, all shots will impact the backstop, otherwise, when shot from a different (read further) position they might escape the side berm, due to the bay configuration. I would consider this an acceptable reason to invoke rule 1.1.5.1. Another example: there are (here in Italy) some clubs that are forced to shoot IPSC shooting inside free pistol ranges, or even indoor ranges, where you can only shoot in the backstop direction, not on the sides. In some cases, the stage setup and procedure will lead to non-compliance with the freestyle rule. The range rules and construction are a good reason to invoke rule 1.1.5.1. I am aware of the fact that this would lead to a case-by-case decision on each and every stage, but, as Shooter Grrl pointed out, if you feel some clubs are abusing this rule, you could inquire about why did they invoke rule 1.1.5.1 and take your decisions according. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 What do I do when I go to a match that has illegal stages? This is what you could do: ask the MD/RM to withdraw the stage from the competition, since it is illegal according to the rulebook. I think you can go up to the Arbitration Committe with your request, but the decision to ask for stage withdrawal is really up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Put in your notes for the next revision to specify that Level 1 and 2 matches can circumvent round count, number of stages, types of stages and can use boxes instead of stating that they do not have to comply with the entire rulebook "....... instead of stating that they do not have to comply with the entire rulebook" ???? OK, now I'm totally dumbfounded. Kath, who thinks that Rule 1.1.5.1 says that the entire rulebook can be ignored? The rule clearly states: 1.1.5.1 Level I and Level II matches are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements or round count limitations. Note that the exception highlighted in blue above is specifically in respect of two items, and two items only, which are highlighted in red above. If clubs are using the above rule as a global "get out of jail free" card in respect of the whole rulebook, the problem is not the rule - it's the people adding far more to the exception than what is stated. What am I missing here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Erik, Unless the matches you're referring to are Level III or higher, I can't imagine what those clubs are doing to make their stages "illegal". Can you please give me some examples, because I'd really like to get a handle on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted February 20, 2004 Author Share Posted February 20, 2004 1.1.5.1 Level I and Level II matches are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements or round count limitations.What am I missing here? Oops, missed those hilited sections when I glanced at it - sowwy - blonde moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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