Factory Ammo

[Jody Waring]

Hey guys! I recently shot some Winchester Whitebox ammo out of my Shadow, and it worked pretty well. The 147gr ammo seemed pretty stout, but I have to admit the gun ran great with it and with the 11lb recoil spring, the brass landed about 10 feet away in a perfect little circle. I was just thinking that with all of the time I spend working up loads, I might try to duplicate some factory ammunition. Does anyone have any data to duplicate factory ammo? Winchester, Remington, Federal? What about remanufactured? I always have been curious to see what powder Winchester uses in their ammo. As I mentioned, my gun performed really well, so I would like to load up some ammo equivalent to factory to try. I would be using 124gr, and 147gr. I appreciate any help you could offer. Thanks!

[MustangGreg66]

My understanding is that most large manufacturers use powder that they develop or mix themselves and usually isn't available direct to the public. That being said, there is usually a powder that will get you close, I'd suspect you could get closer with handgun ammo that rifle.

I'd think a good method for this would be to pick a particular factory load you'd like to duplicate, chronograph it so you know what speed they bullet is traveling. Aquire a quantity of the same or similar bullet and then the fun begins. You've got to find a powder that has a similar burn rate. I don't have any knowledge of powders that factory ammo uses, maybe someone else can chime in with that info. I'd be interested to know as well.

Good luck.

[lowlands]

Shooting some rounds over the chrono and pulling a factory round apart with a bullet puller and then weighing the charge used would give you a good ballpark region what burn rate the powder has. Compare it with reloading tables or known recipes and the velocity of the factory round.

[Rico567]

While communicating with the Winchester folks at Alton on an unrelated matter, I was told in the course of the conversation what powder is used in commercial ammo. The most important thing to the manufacturer is that the same ammunition perform the same, lot to lot, while this may or may not be important to the reloader.

The loading of factory ammo is done with various powders that are blended to achieve that particular velocity with that bullet, etc. Lots may vary slightly, but probably not so anyone is going to notice.

Powders produced for the reloading trade are manufactured so that a particular powder will perform the same every time, e.g., Bullseye always has the same burning characteristics lot to lot, or Unique, 231, Clays, etc. These are termed "canister" powders, are what we reloaders use, and it is why it is fruitless to try to get exactly the same components as the factory uses. When it comes to powder, you can't do it......so the best you can do is to attempt to duplicate the velocity of a favorite factory ammo.

Nota bene: although it should be obvious, never, ever attempt to blend powders yourself.

[Jody Waring]

Thanks for the informative replies! I had wondered about "blended" powders, and no thats not anything I would do. I was just thinking say Winchester Whitebox ammo- being able to load the equivalent at home. And you're right, chrony some factory ammo and work up a load, I suppose that would be the best solution. Thanks again guys!

[GrumpyOne]

From what I have read elsewhere, Alliants Power Pistol powder is the closest that a reloader can get to duplicate Winchester White box ammo.

[freakshow10mm]

Negative. Winchester uses Winchester brand powders, known to the commercial trade as SMP powder. The nomenclature carries over, so Winchester 231 is SMP 231. SMP 296 is Winchester 296. SMP 224 is AutoComp. Winchester 760 (rifle) is SMP 760.

Winchester is the only ammo company that markets their factory powder to the handloading community. It's not the exact same lot, but it's the same powder profile.

Alliante Power Pistol is in the Bullseye family and I'll have to check my notes, but it's called Bullseye 88 or Bullseye 82.

[Joe4d]

I generally find a readily available factory load my gun likes in case I have to buy factory ammo somewhere, however I wouldnt intentionally try to duplicate factory ammo, especially the cheap stuff, as you noted the recoil is greater than it needs to be, most likely due to a slow burning powder, Pick up some Titegroup and load to the power factor you want and you'll never be happy with factory ammo again.

[Jody Waring]

I actually am going to be switching to Titegroup here pretty soon to see how I like it. As far as duplicating factory loads, just as an example I thought that if I had one that I really liked, and it worked well, if I could load that myself it would be pretty sweet. It was just a thought.

[GrumpyOne]

Negative. Winchester uses Winchester brand powders, known to the commercial trade as SMP powder. The nomenclature carries over, so Winchester 231 is SMP 231. SMP 296 is Winchester 296. SMP 224 is AutoComp. Winchester 760 (rifle) is SMP 760.

Winchester is the only ammo company that markets their factory powder to the handloading community. It's not the exact same lot, but it's the same powder profile.

Alliante Power Pistol is in the Bullseye family and I'll have to check my notes, but it's called Bullseye 88 or Bullseye 82.

You need to read my post again. I did not say that it was, what I said was it was the closest that a person could get to duplicate WWB. While WWB may be loaded with their version of Winchester powders, what I'm saying is weight for weight, charge for charge, you pull a WWB 165 TCN bullet and reload it with the exact same amount of PP, same OAL, you get the same velocity...

Now if you know which powder Winchester is using in their ammo .....Besides, Winchester is loaded with canister powders, which may be a blend of powders, best suited for what they want for the round.

Look at this site.... http://www.bullseyepistol.com/reloads.htm

Quote from the above website...

Load for the 9mm Service Pistol

Here is a 9mm load that David Sams has been using for testing Beretta 92 barrels and his completed guns that has been proven sub 1.5" groups at 50 yds is as follows:

Starline brass

115gr Hornady FMJ-RN bullet

6.0 - 6.2gr Alliant Power Pistol powder

Rem #5 1/2 SP primers

O.A.L. -- 1.120" no-crimp

Out of a barrel test fixture using Bar-Sto barrels groups have consistently run between .975" to 1.5" averaging about 1". Through David's completed 92F's, he claims that they have been running 1.3" - 1.5" as a reminder these are hand-loaded.

Edited August 29, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[freakshow10mm]

You need to read my post again. I did not say that it was, what I said was it was the closest that a person could get to duplicate WWB.

I suppose duplication and replication have differences.

While WWB may be loaded with their version of Winchester powders, what I'm saying is weight for weight, charge for charge, you pull a WWB 165 TCN bullet and reload it with the exact same amount of PP, same OAL, you get the same velocity...

Not always. See, the large manufacturers load to a certain pressure so their charge weight isn't used like the handloading community. They buy a powder and test the burn rate. Then figure out how much volume of powder will generate the pressure specification needed for the ammunition product to meet their performance. Then they load a volume of powder in each case and call it good. The handloading community is told that a grain weight of powder is a certain pressure, with a tolerance, when that's actually not the case. Handloaders adjust the volume to make a consistent grain weight of powder. The ammunition manufacturers adjust the volume to a specific volume of powder and couldn't care less about what grain weight the charge is. Mass does not equal volume and a volume does not equal a mass. Winchester loads a powder lot to a specific volume for that lot production of ammunition. The next lot of ammo could be a different volume of powder. Hell I've had the same exact box of ammunition have 3 different kinds of powder at 4 different charge weights, but all were the same velocity and pressure when they were tested.

Now if you know which powder Winchester is using in their ammo .....

A few, yes. 9mm is loaded with WSF. .380 is loaded with W231 or AutoComp. .45 is loaded with WST. .40 is loaded with WST. .38 Spl is loaded with W231. 357 Mag is loaded with W296 or AutoComp.

Besides, Winchester is loaded with canister powders, which may be a blend of powders, best suited for what they want for the round.

Right, Winchester uses SMP brand powder. The same powder that is marketed under their trademark is the same powder they use in their ammunition. Difference being lot numbers. The lot you and I buy on the shelf are pretty consistent and are only a part of the entire spectrum of burn rate for that powder type. Being an OEM ammo manufacturer I have access to the "non-canister" powders that are merely different burn lots of the same powder that's sold to the handloading public.

Look at this site.... http://www.bullseyepistol.com/reloads.htm

Quote from the above website...

Load for the 9mm Service Pistol

Here is a 9mm load that David Sams has been using for testing Beretta 92 barrels and his completed guns that has been proven sub 1.5" groups at 50 yds is as follows:

Starline brass

115gr Hornady FMJ-RN bullet

6.0 - 6.2gr Alliant Power Pistol powder

Rem #5 1/2 SP primers

O.A.L. -- 1.120" no-crimp

Out of a barrel test fixture using Bar-Sto barrels groups have consistently run between .975" to 1.5" averaging about 1". Through David's completed 92F's, he claims that they have been running 1.3" - 1.5" as a reminder these are hand-loaded.

Ok, so it's an accurate load. Am I missing something??

[Jody Waring]

freakshow, I thought I heard or read somewhere that Winchester did in fact use WSF in their 9mm ammo, but wasn't sure. A friend of mine uses it in his ammo and really likes it.

[freakshow10mm]

I use WSF for full power loads and N320 for subsonic.

[GrumpyOne]

You need to read my post again. I did not say that it was, what I said was it was the closest that a person could get to duplicate WWB.

I suppose duplication and replication have differences.

While WWB may be loaded with their version of Winchester powders, what I'm saying is weight for weight, charge for charge, you pull a WWB 165 TCN bullet and reload it with the exact same amount of PP, same OAL, you get the same velocity...

Not always. See, the large manufacturers load to a certain pressure so their charge weight isn't used like the handloading community. They buy a powder and test the burn rate. Then figure out how much volume of powder will generate the pressure specification needed for the ammunition product to meet their performance. Then they load a volume of powder in each case and call it good. The handloading community is told that a grain weight of powder is a certain pressure, with a tolerance, when that's actually not the case. Handloaders adjust the volume to make a consistent grain weight of powder. The ammunition manufacturers adjust the volume to a specific volume of powder and couldn't care less about what grain weight the charge is. Mass does not equal volume and a volume does not equal a mass. Winchester loads a powder lot to a specific volume for that lot production of ammunition. The next lot of ammo could be a different volume of powder. Hell I've had the same exact box of ammunition have 3 different kinds of powder at 4 different charge weights, but all were the same velocity and pressure when they were tested.

Now if you know which powder Winchester is using in their ammo .....

A few, yes. 9mm is loaded with WSF. .380 is loaded with W231 or AutoComp. .45 is loaded with WST. .40 is loaded with WST. .38 Spl is loaded with W231. 357 Mag is loaded with W296 or AutoComp.

Besides, Winchester is loaded with canister powders, which may be a blend of powders, best suited for what they want for the round.

Right, Winchester uses SMP brand powder. The same powder that is marketed under their trademark is the same powder they use in their ammunition. Difference being lot numbers. The lot you and I buy on the shelf are pretty consistent and are only a part of the entire spectrum of burn rate for that powder type. Being an OEM ammo manufacturer I have access to the "non-canister" powders that are merely different burn lots of the same powder that's sold to the handloading public.

Look at this site.... http://www.bullseyepistol.com/reloads.htm

Quote from the above website...

Load for the 9mm Service Pistol

Here is a 9mm load that David Sams has been using for testing Beretta 92 barrels and his completed guns that has been proven sub 1.5" groups at 50 yds is as follows:

Starline brass

115gr Hornady FMJ-RN bullet

6.0 - 6.2gr Alliant Power Pistol powder

Rem #5 1/2 SP primers

O.A.L. -- 1.120" no-crimp

Out of a barrel test fixture using Bar-Sto barrels groups have consistently run between .975" to 1.5" averaging about 1". Through David's completed 92F's, he claims that they have been running 1.3" - 1.5" as a reminder these are hand-loaded.

Ok, so it's an accurate load. Am I missing something??

Just the website....

All I was saying was that a very close approximation of WWB can be made with PP. And being that we, the general public, usually don't have access to the same powders that Win uses, that the PP load was the best that one could come up with...But no....you have to say different...

And, is all their 40 loaded with WST? They have several different weights of bullets, with different profiles...Not a calling out...I just want to know...

Edited August 29, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[freakshow10mm]

Other powders besides PP can duplicate the pressure and velocity of other powder. PP is not a talisman for WWB. That was my point.

My uncle is a ballistic engineer/technician with Olin's ammo division. Let me check with him and get back to you.

[GrumpyOne]

Other powders besides PP can duplicate the pressure and velocity of other powder. PP is not a talisman for WWB. That was my point.

My uncle is a ballistic engineer/technician with Olin's ammo division. Let me check with him and get back to you.

Cool, there are alot of people who would like to try and duplicate their WWB rounds. There are always questions about what powders are used in them.

[freakshow10mm]

.40 is loaded with WST, WSF, and AutoComp depending on the burn rate of the lot and the ammunition load being loaded.