IDPA Rules Addendum

[jmorris]

Sorry but I'm not a cut/paste/quote wizard on a BB.

However, it is not a safety reason all, factory GAP will make 165 PF but the factory 9mm that will you can count on one hand with fingers left.

The reason is to weed out "gamers" the very few autorim guys just got caught up in the broom, so to speak.

If the guys/gals that make the rules were the same as you they would be different.

[COF]

short ammo loads faster in the cylinder. OK for some calibers but not others.

So why then no Auto rim in SSR. 45AR is no way shorter or faster than using 45ACP on moons which a 625 is designed for. Auto rim haves identical internal cartridge specifications, and is only cosmetically different. Why is 45AR getting a death sentence. I understand GAP and short colt that has a motive behind it. Whats the motive for banning 45AR?

I don't see this change as prohibiting .45AR at all - if you're shooting it in a .45 ACP gun. The .45AR cartridge was designed to do just that so you're not shooting shortened cases. It simply allows you to shoot your ESR gun in SSR - if it makes weight. Now, if you're shooting the .45AR in a .45 Colt, you're a gamer

Edited July 9, 2010 by COF

[Blueridge]

I've only skimmed over it as well. My first question is what do they have against .45 GAP? Not sure I would use it, but what difference could/would it make?

5. Enhanced Service Revolver Division (ESR)

Additional language to A. page 24

A. Be any revolver of 9mm caliber (.355" or larger) or larger bore diameter utilizing rimmed or rimless cartridges, which may safely make a power factor of 165,000. The use of trimmed (shortened) ammunition is not allowed. Ammunition used must match the caliber listed on the gun. The only exceptions would be: .38 special in .357 magnum, 9mm in .38 super, 40S&W in 10mm, 44 special in .44 magnum.

Hmmm...This causes me a problem as I use a Ruger Super Redhawk shooting .45 Colt, and the caliber listed on the gun is .454 Casull......Nevermind, I just checked the side of the Alaskan and it shows ".454 Casull Cal. & .45 Colt Cal." so no problem here.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Blueridge

[feersum dreadnaught]

So regarding the new gun rules (was specifically thinking about the 42oz change), does this go into effect now, or in 12 months?

[

this one happens to make me happy - my Sig P220 Stainless Elite is 41.5 oz, so now is legit for CDP.

[RickB]

Lugnut hits on the same issue I had with the new rules - that "available cover" still really isn't clearly defined. I've had the same argument with my Match Director over what constitutes available cover - to my mind, if you've shot all the threat targets and are not exposed to any un-shot targets, you're "behind cover" regardless of where you are on the COF. I have also heard it explained that you're "behind cover" when you're within the confines of the width of the wall/whatever is being used as the cover object.

However, I don't want to be a total debbie-downer. The simple fact that IDPA is releasing rule updates and definitions is a good thing, and shows a step towards increasing shooter growth and clarifying things.

The presence of a cover postion defines "availability". Clubs used to make up stuff, like "cover that's two steps away (three steps, four steps, five . . .) is available." If a stage includes a cover position, it's available. If you are moving from one place to another, and no threats are visible, you are "behind cover", even if you are moving across what is obviously open ground. The solution is in a good written procedure: You may reload between position one and position two. You may not reload at the vision barrier between postion one and position two. If the procedure doesn't address that, it's not a rules issue.

[RickB]

short ammo loads faster in the cylinder. OK for some calibers but not others.

So why then no Auto rim in SSR. 45AR is no way shorter or faster than using 45ACP on moons which a 625 is designed for. Auto rim haves identical internal cartridge specifications, and is only cosmetically different. Why is 45AR getting a death sentence. I understand GAP and short colt that has a motive behind it. Whats the motive for banning 45AR?

The sky is falling! .45 AR has not been banned from revolvers marked .45 Auto. Or revolvers marked .45 ACP.

[John Z Sr]

Too bad we can't just go to a match and let the fastest most accurate shooter win. Wouldn't that be nice?

[RickB]

Too bad we can't just go to a match and let the fastest most accurate shooter win. Wouldn't that be nice?

I've been shooting "competitively" for twelve years, and that's always been the case. Is there some sport that favors slow, near-sighted, fat guys? I think I could win at that!

[John Z Sr]

Too bad we can't just go to a match and let the fastest most accurate shooter win. Wouldn't that be nice?

I've been shooting "competitively" for twelve years, and that's always been the case. Is there some sport that favors slow, near-sighted, fat guys? I think I could win at that!

Hey Rick, maybe we could do stationary soda cans at 15 feet with pump shotguns and birdshot, if we have no rules, they can't make any useless ones

[RickB]

Too bad we can't just go to a match and let the fastest most accurate shooter win. Wouldn't that be nice?

I've been shooting "competitively" for twelve years, and that's always been the case. Is there some sport that favors slow, near-sighted, fat guys? I think I could win at that!

Hey Rick, maybe we could do stationary soda cans at 15 feet with pump shotguns and birdshot, if we have no rules, they can't make any useless ones

But, you've already made five or six rules, in that one sentence! The target must be a soda can, it must be stationary, it must be fifteen feet from the shooter (fourteen feet earns a PE, thirteen feet a match DQ?), it must be shot with a shotgun - only a pump shotgun - only with birdshot only. The second edtion rule book for your sport, scheduled to come out in 2013, will probably be five pages long. You'll need to define "soda can", develop some dimension and weight specs, come up with a standard target stand and target height, etc. Must be 12ga shotgun? Different divisions for different gauges?

[John Z Sr]

Too bad we can't just go to a match and let the fastest most accurate shooter win. Wouldn't that be nice?

I've been shooting "competitively" for twelve years, and that's always been the case. Is there some sport that favors slow, near-sighted, fat guys? I think I could win at that!

Hey Rick, maybe we could do stationary soda cans at 15 feet with pump shotguns and birdshot, if we have no rules, they can't make any useless ones

But, you've already made five or six rules, in that one sentence! The target must be a soda can, it must be stationary, it must be fifteen feet from the shooter (fourteen feet earns a PE, thirteen feet a match DQ?), it must be shot with a shotgun - only a pump shotgun - only with birdshot only. The second edtion rule book for your sport, scheduled to come out in 2013, will probably be five pages long. You'll need to define "soda can", develop some dimension and weight specs, come up with a standard target stand and target height, etc. Must be 12ga shotgun? Different divisions for different gauges?

Too bad we live on opposite sides of our great Country, you and I would get along just fine my friend !!!

[Ty Hamby]

short ammo loads faster in the cylinder. OK for some calibers but not others.

So why then no Auto rim in SSR. 45AR is no way shorter or faster than using 45ACP on moons which a 625 is designed for. Auto rim haves identical internal cartridge specifications, and is only cosmetically different. Why is 45AR getting a death sentence. I understand GAP and short colt that has a motive behind it. Whats the motive for banning 45AR?

The sky is falling! .45 AR has not been banned from revolvers marked .45 Auto. Or revolvers marked .45 ACP.

First off .45Auto marking on a revolver barrel doesnt exist, plenty of pistol barrels with that on them though. Second wouldnt 45 auto rim (key-word auto)be the same as ACP but with the additional rim? The cartrige was designed in 1920 by Remington-Peters to be used in Smith & Wesson's about-to-be-introduced ".45 Hand Ejector U.S. Service Model Of 1917. It would also use the 3 round moon clips. I just dont understand the reason for chopping the head off of this cartrige. Short colt in 357 guns yes that makes sence. 45gap in automatic colt pistol revolvers yes that makes sence but 45 auto rimmed in acp guns? confused?

[RickB]

Short colt in 357 guns yes that makes sence. 45gap in automatic colt pistol revolvers yes that makes sence but 45 auto rimmed in acp guns? confused?

The rules addendum includes a bit about shooting the ammo in your revolver that's indicated on the revolver, as a means of preventing shenanigans such as shooting .45 GAP in .45 Auto/ACP revolvers. Or shooting .38 Colt in .357 Magnums. I don't think there has ever been a factory revolver made that indicates it's chambered for .45 Auto Rim (my Hand Ejector Mk. II has had ".455" overstamped so it reads ".45AR", but it didn't come out of Springfield that way), so some take this to mean that the rules addendum has banned Auto Rim use in Auto/ACP revolvers. It does not.

Edited July 12, 2010 by RickB

[jmorris]

So, what if I have a 625 from the jmorris custom shop/performance center that won’t chamber ACP and the ACP on the barrel has been welded up and reengraved with GAP? Any different than a custom 1911 in ESP/CDP? Game and gamer are almost the same just one letter. I think it should be called the 625r.

[Glock3422]

It seems the rule addendum has recorded the first victim.

The East Coast Championship seemed to modify stages to conform to the new window (is really a door) approach, a stage that was intended to be shot through "cell" bars added the use of retreating to cover, and the definition of "shooting position" became an issue. Several stages adopted the view that if you had to move your foot to get there, it was a new shooting postion and could be assessed a cover procedural. I mean, just one foot. Pieing a corner presented multiple opportunities to receive cover procedurals.

This "shooting position" problem in a typical IDPA format now provides the opportunity to receive a procedural on each target. Now, this may not be the intent, but that is what the words have been read to mean. That interpretation is not unreasonable. I believe it is wrong, but not unreasonable.

I guess the next addendum will define "shooting position."

Or maybe the next revision will assess a penalty for each shot, like another practical shooting sport.

Oh, my next vest will have pockets on both sides for 32 round mags.

These changes have accomplished nothing other than throwing the sport into turmoil for no good reason. Local issues with stage design regarding cover need to be addressed by the AC and not outsourced to the rule book. Stiffeners in the vest are sound realistic tactical issues. Grabbing a hand full of vest on your way to the gun is dangerous everywhere. "Stiffeners" tend to reduce the gun print on the concealment. Efficient gear is good gear. There is no equipment race in vests. Ok, there are those who have a custom made vest with huge pockets, but they are ineffective and a waste of effort. Much ado about nothing. Who would want to outlaw custom vests? I can think of more than a few who would not. I expect there were fewer than six individuals who had input into these changes and that can hardly be expected to reflect the views of the membership, the member clubs, major match directors or the vast majority of ACs.

[Duane Thomas]

If we can ever manage to have a thread such as this without descending to criticizing the folks who put together the Rule Book, I should be able to leave it open.

Closed.