Saiga 12 High Cap Mags?

[IPSC GUY]

How prevalent is the use of 8 or 10 round magazines out there for three gun? I have been reading the AWB and as far as I can tell they are NOT banned. The law says "a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds or the ability to accept a detachable magazine." NO WHERE in the law does it say anything about detachable magazine capacity. If you ask EAA (the importer) they say "well the ATF say not to sell them." Anyway I know the 8 and 10 round magazines are out there in very small quantities. How may people use them? Also are they allowed in Limited? Lastly if one were say LEO and had these magazines through their department, would it allowable to use them in competition?

IPSC GUY sends

[Wakal]

I use a USAS-12 with 10-round mags in 3-Gun. Works like a charm, but the USAS is set up like a AR instead of an AK

The downside of the USAS-12 is that it weighs 12.5 pounds...dry. Add the Professor McCoy Scope Mount , the EOTech, and the 10 round magazine...well, I'm 6'3 220 and do PT five days a week. Liota can hardly lift the shotgun, much less make a speedy plate rack run with it

USAS-12: $995 and a LE letter

3 3/4 dram 7 1/2 shells: $6.50/box

EOTech: $200

Custom scope mount: Six pack/Lone Star ("cold")

Beating GM's with equipment instead of skill: priceless

Alex

[mike.45]

IPSC Guy,

In IPSC rules the detachable mag is OK but it automatically puts you in Open class and there is no capacity restrictions, I understand from Neil Beverley who wrote the IPSC rules that USPSA rules closely mirror this.

As for 3 gun not under these rulings....well they would be mad to let you shoot in limited with it !!

There are some similar threads on this forum if you do a search.

Good luck

Mike

[Chuck Anderson]

Under USPSA you should be able to use the Saiga with magazines in Limited class unless they changed for 2004. I have seen a couple shootes do this. The 8 round mags are prohibitively expensive. The last one I saw sold on Ebay for over $200.00. EAA will not sell to anyone other than Law Enforcement AGENCIES. They are worried that the Saiga with be classed a destructive device like they did with the USAS-12 and Street Sweeper. If you are interested in more information about the Saiga shotguns they have their own forum, www.saiga-12.com. I did a fair amount of research on it and I don't think that the Saiga is going to be useful for 3-gun, unless you want to try it with the 5 round mags.

That said, EAA should be showing their new Saiga-12 SWAT model at the SHOT show this year. This one has a cross bolt safety and magazines that insert straight in ( M-16 style) instead rocking it in like the AK. This one has some serious potential.

Good luck. If you figure out a way to make it work let me know. I'll dust mine off again.

Chuck

[Wakal]

Per the 14th edition USPSA rules, Open shotgun is restricted to 11 rounds in the gun and Standard to 9 rounds in the gun. Otherwise I'd be using the 20-round drums that were perfectly legal for competition when I bought the shotgun!

Here is a question...I seem to remember reading somewhere that a detachable magazine automatically made a shotgun "Open" but a quick read of Section 12 doesn't show that rule. Did it change?

Alex

[BPiatt]

I did want to let you know that there is a thing called a "plastic welder". You can have two 5 round mags welded up into a 9 or 10 rounder. I know of one gunsmith who has done this and he told me they are functioning fine.

BTW, I have a Saiga 12ga with the short barrel/screw choke barrel and 6 or 7 magazines that I'm not using. Anyone interested?

Bruce

[Neil Beverley]

In reply to the various comments on this I would say that for IPSC there is no doubt that the use of detachable magazines automatically means Open Division.

I haven't yet seen if there will be any changes for the USPSA Divisions but in any case for Standard Division, and therefore I believe you should also take this as Limited Division, speedloaders are not permitted. Again they are fine for USPSA in Open. There has been a debate in another thread with the consensus that detachable magazines are regarded and treated as speedloaders. You can follow the discussions by clicking HERE

[Wakal]

Debate and discussion are all fine and good, and one of the things that make life interesting.

However, I'll ask again. WHAT SPECIFIC RULE (if any) STATES THAT IN USPSA, DETACHABLE MAGAZINE SHOTGUNS ARE AUTOMATICALLY "OPEN"? Debate is fine, but only the actual written rules (or rulings, from The Powers That Be) count for a hill of beans in this crazy, mixed up world of ours

Because if there isn't a rule anymore...and I don't see it in section 12 of the 14th edition USPSA rules...I'm pulling my EOTech off the USAS and playing in Limited

Alex

[PacMan]

Just saw one competitor shot it on Sunday in Pueblo match, neat thing to have, but very limited in potential unless 10 rounders are available at a reasonable price. It's tough to switch ammo load (bird/buck/slug). They had one stage where you need to mix in 4 rounds of buckshots and 4 rounds of slugs in the array. Can't top off the magazine either.

[IPSC GUY]

In a situation like that, why not simply change to a magazine loaded with whatever you need?

IPSC_GUY sends

[Carlos]

I must agree with Wakal here; mag fed shotguns ARE allowed in Limited & that is the current rule. No one has been able to show ANY rule that clearly states "box fed or detachable magazine fed shotguns are confined to Open division." There is no rule to state that a detachable "magazine" is a speedloader. Rather, if we are to rely on the word: "regarded" , then consider this: the object which is commonly "regarded" as a "speed loader" means: a tube holding shotgun shells which is used to fill the fixed magazine of common autoloading shotguns. Such "speed loaders" lack a spring and are more akin to a "stripper clip" which is most certainly NOT a magazine but rather a device for filling a magazine.

What we are discussing is clearly a magazine and NOT a speedloader! The word, "magazine" is commonly "regarded" as a detachable box containing ammo under spring tension and which is a required part to normaly operate the firearm; BATF/DHS considers a magazine to be an included part of the firearm; not an accesory like a stripper clip or speeloader. While agree that current popular shotguns might become less competitive were magazines available for the Saiga, such is progress. The answer is not to mutilate the language or torture logic by somehow calling a magazine a "speedloader" but rather let the winning technology & shooting skill decide.

[mike.45]

Carlos,

Whilst you may well be technically right under USPSA rules ( I have not actually checked my rule book) I do think you have to look at the reasoning behind the grades and why they are there in the first place. They are there to try and STOP a certain gun type of unusual manufactue having an 'advantage' over another in a certain class - apart from OPEN where anything goes ( hence its called open) and try and make people compete on a level playing field.

Whats the point of having a limited (standard) grade gun when someone can buy a rare gun and have a distint advantage over the rest. Its supposed to be the class where everyone has the same openly available kit and the only real advantage is skill and ability level, like in pistols.

If you want to compete against the top shooters in limited why try and win by questioning the rules and hoping the technical advantage will negate the skill level they all show in using the same type guns ?

If the rule book is wrong and they made a mistake in interpretation then who are you really 'kidding' by shooting your box mag - would you really feel you were really the best if you won against normal 8 shot mag pumps and autos ?

I dont mean to get on my high horse and if you really feel box mags are legal in limited then good luck. I bet it will make interesting arguments with the RM's but forget shooting in IPSC comps with it in limited (standard). This is probably why the IPSC name was changed to 'standard', as it denotes the standard type of gun.

Mike

[shred]

Hell, if it's only what it's named I'll just get some PVC, make myself some "Shred's Own SuperDooperSlowLoaderTubes" and I'll be good to go for Limited. Somebody says "Hey, that's a speedloader", I'll say, "no it's not, a speedloader is something that holds revolver ammo."

It's pretty obvious which way the powers-that-be feel about it, so I'd guess that even if you could convince an arb comm that a box mag wasn't a "speedloader" (isn't what we do with magazines a "speed load"?, anyway, I digress) I doubt it will remain so vague for long.

[Garrett]

Beating GM's with equipment instead of skill: priceless

Ha! Yeah, what he said.

[Wakal]

Rare? There are no less than five USAS on gunsamerica right now...one of them is only $1,500. My wife's JP Open shotgun (you know, the ones that use speedloaders instead of magazines) cost a hundred bucks more than that

A "magazine" is a "speedloader"...in a pig's eye.

I think Carlos nailed it with the very different definitions of speedloaders and magazines. Whining about "equipment" is the same thing said about comps and dot sights back in the day... Besides, this is IPSC and not IDPA, we should act like it. This "I don't care what the rules say, I don't like it" is NOT the hallmark of IPSC.

If there is no rule in the USPSA rule book (as agreed in this very thread by folks a whole lot smarter than Mamma Wakal's Least Favorite Son) then no RO is going to tell me different. I'll have my handy C-note on the table so fast...and put it right back in my wallet after the Arb committee laughs that RO off the range

Alex

[shred]

I dunno Wakal, I'd be hard-pressed to give you your $100 back, and not only because I might enjoy torquing you off and could use the beer money at the end of a long match .

I go on the "'Taint what it's called, it's what it does", theory. Since no other proper nouns are used in that section of the rules, I'd have to go with "Speed Loaders" not referring only to devices actually called "Speed Loaders", but devices that perform speed-loads, much as "Compensators" would disallow my "ACME Blast-Enhancer"

What's a speed load? Putting more than one cartridge in the gun at a time, I say. That usage works for revolvers, semi-autos and even double-barrel shotguns (wherein SASS folks supposedly call throwing two shells in at a time a "speed load"). Even the ATF in banning the USAS-12 cited it's "rapid reloading" ability with box magazines.

And to think I could actually use Wakal shooting Limited and staying away from me in Open..