Rule 2.1.6 Ports and walls

[AzYooper]

The reverse situation is not necessarily true ... A very low port CAN be available to even a very tall (or overweight) shooter, even if they do not like doing it.

Just for the sake of discussion, let's look at that in a different light. You and several others claim that low ports maintain competitive equity while higher placed ports do not. But if a shooter of shorter stature doesn't even have to bend, and in some/many cases, slow down, to engage a target through that low port, how does that equate to a taller shooter who does have to stop/bend/get into and out of that position? Simple answer - it does create a competitive inequity in favor of the smaller shooter.

The easy and fair answer is to use vertical slots or slits for access to targets; not ports that give a distinct advantage to the short folks among us.

*Please don't misunderstand. I like short people. I have several friends who are short. I'm even grateful to short people. When I was very young and we were very poor, in the winter we would sometimes grab two little people and rub them together for heat.

Just don't try to sell me on the idea that short ports are equally fair to all.

You are right about a slight time advantage with somewhat lowered ports. I feel that this can be evened-out with the leaning shots that tall shooters might have a slight time advantage.

I think the focus of the issue brought by short people is not the little bit of extra time to take the shot from a different port or a little bit of time difference in crouching for tall people, but that fact that shorter shooters lack that shooting position. If shorter shooters had the option to place a box or crate below the port and use that to have this shot available I think that it would be fair enough. Just as crouching takes a bit more time the box would take a bit more time also, but I would not complain.

[Schutzenmeister]

The reverse situation is not necessarily true ... A very low port CAN be available to even a very tall (or overweight) shooter, even if they do not like doing it.

Just for the sake of discussion, let's look at that in a different light. You and several others claim that low ports maintain competitive equity while higher placed ports do not. But if a shooter of shorter stature doesn't even have to bend, and in some/many cases, slow down, to engage a target through that low port, how does that equate to a taller shooter who does have to stop/bend/get into and out of that position? Simple answer - it does create a competitive inequity in favor of the smaller shooter.

[...]

I think you misunderstand my point ...

A very tall shooter CAN bend over slightly (or severly) to shoot a medium or very low port ... A very short shooter CANNOT magically grow taller to reach a port that has it's bottom edge at say 5'6" ... Hence THAT shooting position is physically NOT available to all shooters and therefore it could be argued the stage does NOT present the same shooting challenge to everyone (within reason, of course!)

[...]

You are right about a slight time advantage with somewhat lowered ports. I feel that this can be evened-out with the leaning shots that tall shooters might have a slight time advantage.

I think the focus of the issue brought by short people is not the little bit of extra time to take the shot from a different port or a little bit of time difference in crouching for tall people, but that fact that shorter shooters lack that shooting position. If shorter shooters had the option to place a box or crate below the port and use that to have this shot available I think that it would be fair enough. Just as crouching takes a bit more time the box would take a bit more time also, but I would not complain.

BINGO!

[wgnoyes]

..*Please don't misunderstand. I like short people. I have several friends who are short. I'm even grateful to short people. When I was very young and we were very poor, in the winter we would sometimes grab two little people and rub them together for heat.

Just don't try to sell me on the idea that short ports are equally fair to all.

Didn't Randy Newman has a song about this?

[ima45dv8]

The reverse situation is not necessarily true ... A very low port CAN be available to even a very tall (or overweight) shooter, even if they do not like doing it.

Just for the sake of discussion, let's look at that in a different light. You and several others claim that low ports maintain competitive equity while higher placed ports do not. But if a shooter of shorter stature doesn't even have to bend, and in some/many cases, slow down, to engage a target through that low port, how does that equate to a taller shooter who does have to stop/bend/get into and out of that position? Simple answer - it does create a competitive inequity in favor of the smaller shooter.

[...]

I think you misunderstand my point ...

A very tall shooter CAN bend over slightly (or severly) to shoot a medium or very low port ... A very short shooter CANNOT magically grow taller to reach a port that has it's bottom edge at say 5'6" ... Hence THAT shooting position is physically NOT available to all shooters and therefore it could be argued the stage does NOT present the same shooting challenge to everyone (within reason, of course!)

No, Mike, I didn't misunderstand at all. You are (again) making the point that a taller shooter can simply adapt to the challenge by bending how ever much is required. I know this. I do it often. I also know that shorter shooters can't magically grow taller to reach ports set so high as to otherwise be unavailable to them. We are in agreement on that much.

What I was hoping you could see is there is a different challenge presented to different shooters in many of these instances. Let's say there's only two people competing in a particular division - me and someone a foot shorter than I am. When the majority of the ports are constructed low and short and that shorter shooter doesn't have to change their body posture at all (or minimally) getting into and out of those ports, and doesn't have to look through or over the top of their glasses to aim, it simple is not the same challenge.

It's not a deal breaker for me. I'm going to shoot the stage anyway. Been doing that way for a long time. But as I said before, the simple fix is to make the ports taller from top to bottom, or use slots or slits to create the challenge.

Now....have I ever deliberately built a stage that gave a taller shooter a slight advantage? You betcha! And have I ever discovered and exploited a stage design that gave my height an advantage? Oh Hell yes!

There are very few opportunities that favor someone who can change a light bulb without a step-ladder, and I'll attack every one I see in a 'freestyle manner'!

[G-ManBart]

The reverse situation is not necessarily true ... A very low port CAN be available to even a very tall (or overweight) shooter, even if they do not like doing it.

Just for the sake of discussion, let's look at that in a different light. You and several others claim that low ports maintain competitive equity while higher placed ports do not. But if a shooter of shorter stature doesn't even have to bend, and in some/many cases, slow down, to engage a target through that low port, how does that equate to a taller shooter who does have to stop/bend/get into and out of that position? Simple answer - it does create a competitive inequity in favor of the smaller shooter.

[...]

I think you misunderstand my point ...

A very tall shooter CAN bend over slightly (or severly) to shoot a medium or very low port ... A very short shooter CANNOT magically grow taller to reach a port that has it's bottom edge at say 5'6" ... Hence THAT shooting position is physically NOT available to all shooters and therefore it could be argued the stage does NOT present the same shooting challenge to everyone (within reason, of course!)

No, Mike, I didn't misunderstand at all. You are (again) making the point that a taller shooter can simply adapt to the challenge by bending how ever much is required. I know this. I do it often. I also know that shorter shooters can't magically grow taller to reach ports set so high as to otherwise be unavailable to them. We are in agreement on that much.

What I was hoping you could see is there is a different challenge presented to different shooters in many of these instances. Let's say there's only two people competing in a particular division - me and someone a foot shorter than I am. When the majority of the ports are constructed low and short and that shorter shooter doesn't have to change their body posture at all (or minimally) getting into and out of those ports, and doesn't have to look through or over the top of their glasses to aim, it simple is not the same challenge.

It's not a deal breaker for me. I'm going to shoot the stage anyway. Been doing that way for a long time. But as I said before, the simple fix is to make the ports taller from top to bottom, or use slots or slits to create the challenge.

Now....have I ever deliberately built a stage that gave a taller shooter a slight advantage? You betcha! And have I ever discovered and exploited a stage design that gave my height an advantage? Oh Hell yes!

There are very few opportunities that favor someone who can change a light bulb without a step-ladder, and I'll attack every one I see in a 'freestyle manner'!

No disagreement with what you're saying, but I think there can be some confusion brought about by the use of the "challenge" phrase. If a position requires a certain height shooter for a particular target to be available, it's not a challenge for a shorter shooter, it's simply not an option. When a port forces a taller shooter to get lower, it's obviously a challenge, but they still have the opportunity to do so. If the port/wall/obstacle is too high for a shorter shooter, they simply don't have that opportunity. When an opportunity is available to a taller shooter, and not a shorter shooter, it can become an unfair advantage because the overall challenge of the stage can be vastly different for the two competitors. If you're tall and take advantage of something I can't, and get to skip stopping and setting up one more time, I have virtually no chance of being competitive with you.

As you said, good stage/prop design can limit or eliminate this. Ports with a larger opening from top to bottom make a lot of sense to me even if I'm only going to use the lower third

[ima45dv8]

No disagreement with what you're saying, but I think there can be some confusion brought about by the use of the "challenge" phrase.

No confusion for me.

If a position requires a certain height shooter for a particular target to be available, it's not a challenge for a shorter shooter, it's simply not an option. When a port forces a taller shooter to get lower, it's obviously a challenge, but they still have the opportunity to do so. If the port/wall/obstacle is too high for a shorter shooter, they simply don't have that opportunity.

That's been said and agreed many times; even in this thread. That situation is common as dirt.

But being of such a routine nature doesn't diminish the fact that it is a different challenge. In the great balance of life I don't bitch about it because I like being able to retreive items from the top shelf without assistance.

When an opportunity is available to a taller shooter, and not a shorter shooter, it can become an unfair advantage because the overall challenge of the stage can be vastly different for the two competitors. If you're tall and take advantage of something I can't, and get to skip stopping and setting up one more time, I have virtually no chance of being competitive with you.

And of those two scenarios, the height advantage is by far the least common.

As you said, good stage/prop design can limit or eliminate this. Ports with a larger opening from top to bottom make a lot of sense to me even if I'm only going to use the lower third

All I'm trying to get folks to understand is....if you can stand naturally erect and relaatively relaxed while engaging a target through a port, while someone else has to bend down and crunch their head down between their shoulders, with all that related tension, and the poor perspective of looking through or over the top of their eyewear, it is not the same.

Don't confuse my comments with complaints. I long ago accepted this is the way things are. I'm only hoping to have some smaller shooters recognize there is an advantage in this sport if they are the sort who get nervous when they see a sign that says, "You must be this tall to ride this ride."

[mactiger]

Yeah, but that's because you are the "large economy size"!

There are better ways to setup courses to allow for different size competitors, but just because someone can take advantage of a loophole you left in a course doesn't make it an illegal course. And, there's nothing wrong with setting targets where they present a big challenge to shoot at from one spot, and a way easier shot from another. Let the competitor solve the problem.

One club in N. Louisiana used to have a member that was 7 feet tall. All their walls were 8 feet tall.

Troy

Edited June 25, 2010 by mactiger

[lugnut]

Don't know how I missed this thread. However being in the short category- I've seen stuff like this many times. I have also seen some shooters have "easy" low targets behind walls that to me are fairly tall. Taller shooter can move much quicker thru this stuff than I.

I do think it's poor stage design when a taller shooter can save time by shooting a partial head shot that a short guy/gal can't even see if they tried. That being said- who said life is fair? I can't blame a stage designer for my small hands when I have to re-grip after hitting my mag release button!

Edited June 25, 2010 by lugnut

[ima45dv8]

Yeah, but that's because you are the "large economy size"!

Quite true, and I'm the smallest of my Momma's 4 sons. I accept that flying Coach most times won't be a pleasant experience, and people make fun of the water vibrating in their glasses when a stage requires me to go prone, and most of the CR Speed belts I see offered for sale here would only serve as a thigh rig for me.

But I'm comforted by the fact I don't require a Lo-Rider to ensure I have both feet on the ground at a redlight.

[G-ManBart]

When an opportunity is available to a taller shooter, and not a shorter shooter, it can become an unfair advantage because the overall challenge of the stage can be vastly different for the two competitors. If you're tall and take advantage of something I can't, and get to skip stopping and setting up one more time, I have virtually no chance of being competitive with you.

And of those two scenarios, the height advantage is by far the least common.

Sure (and I didn't think you were complaining), but my point was that we can avoid both through proper stage design. If you have to crouch more than I do it's a slight advantage for me (in most cases). If you can shoot a target that I can't even see, and it lets you skip a position, it's a huge advantage for you. I'd simply prefer neither happens to either of us

[Schutzenmeister]

[...]

No, Mike, I didn't misunderstand at all. You are (again) making the point that a taller shooter can simply adapt to the challenge by bending how ever much is required. I know this. I do it often. I also know that shorter shooters can't magically grow taller to reach ports set so high as to otherwise be unavailable to them. We are in agreement on that much.

Mark ... I think we're actually in substantially full agreement. The bold portion is the LIMIT of the argument I was making.

Sure (and I didn't think you were complaining), but my point was that we can avoid both through proper stage design. If you have to crouch more than I do it's a slight advantage for me (in most cases). If you can shoot a target that I can't even see, and it lets you skip a position, it's a huge advantage for you. I'd simply prefer neither happens to either of us

Chris

BINGO!

Guys ... It's a stage design/setup issue ... There will ALWAYS be some advantage/disadvantage due to height, Left vs Right hand, etc. IMHO, a truly good stage design will minimize the differences and let the shooter's ability to shoot decide who wins. In contrast, a stage design which so penalizes a shooter (or group of shooters) as to leave them - by design of the stage - at a serious competitive disadvantage, is a design that perhaps should be rethought and/or modified.

Will I take every advantage of a course design I can find as a shooter? Damn straight! (See 1.1.5!) And I won't feel guilty about it. Will I design a CoF that STRONGLY favors (for example) someone who is 6'6" over someone who is 5'6"? (Or the reverse, for that matter ...) Not if I can help it! A little more work on my part as a course designer, sure. But I feel I owe that to the folks who shoot one of my stages.