Renton's Championship Series match

[Aristotle]

I hosted my monthly match this month, with the exception that it was also a part of the NW Section Championship Series Slot match. 232 rounds, 8 stages and a couple of World & National Champions in the mix, Travis Tomasie and Max Michel.

I took the class with them the day before, and I'm like a kid with new toys. I just can't wait to integrate what I learned in my dry fire/live fire routine. It's hardly settled.

I spent some long hours at the range setting up the stages for this match, so I was beyond exhausted. I was so tired, I couldn't even be nervous. This is probably the first time I never had to use any fast grip to dry my hands as I was so overwhelmed and exhausted mentally, I didn't have any resources to be nervous. Which I think worked out.

I was just a race horse with blinders, all I saw, and worried about when I was on the line was shooting. I liked that.

anyhow, enough yap, here are the vids. Please feel free to critique me or provide any other feedback of the match or myself, it's nice to know someone is watching either way.

I am rendering Max and Travis's match video as I type this. So it'll be up in a few.

[Aristotle]

Travis and Max

[Flyin40]

Thks for posting. Your shooting is looking good, you have come a long way. I'm sure it was hard to shoot the match with all that info running around in your head after having that class. Did you take notes in the class??

Flyin

[Aristotle]

Thks for posting. Your shooting is looking good, you have come a long way. I'm sure it was hard to shoot the match with all that info running around in your head after having that class. Did you take notes in the class??

Flyin

Thanks Flyin. It wasn't just taking the class that made it hard, as I was also the MD and class organizer. And spent quite a bit of time on the range that week setting the match up.

yes, I definitely took notes, and I definitely took a LOT away with me from that class. If what I did all winter with practice was "building the motor", taking this class was like going to the dyno and tuning my jets. There were things I already knew, but there were at least 3-5 BIG things I learned at that class that I feel will make me a better shooter, and I can't wait to get them programed into my training and make them into habit. I learned a LOT with my movement, and how to improve them.

I HIGHLY recommend their class.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Aristotle

[Kahrnage]

It may be that my perspective is slightly different as a result of the many training classes I've taken throughout the years but I didn't feel it was worth the money spent. We really only spent about 4 hours shooting in the class (maybe 4 or 5 types of drills with my round count at 300 rounds total for the training portion of the class) and the rest was lecture time and the match on the following day. To date it is about the lowest round count class I have ever taken and covered the fewest amount of topics and techniques of any class as well.

I compared notes with a buddy that took a class last week from another top level trainer and there just wasn't any comparison on the amount of material covered, drills and techniques worked on, and individual focus from the trainer on pushing the individual in the areas they need the most. I would have actually liked to have participated in that class.

That said Max and Travis are great people with some amazing skills and are some of the nicest people you'll ever meet (nice to the point that they really don't want to point out that you are doing something wrong and tell you to correct it) but they are good people for sure.

All experiences are profitable and this one was as well, just not equal to my expectations or financial expenditure. That's my 2 cents worth.

(Edited for spelling correction)

Edited May 26, 2010 by Kahrnage

[EmanP]

Great match Ari, very well done. Obviously you put a lot of work and effort into it. It's a shame that TT/MM didn't do the same. Kahrnage is right, I've never gone from being soo excited to so depressed after a class before. I've got a review all writen up, I just need to find the right forum here to post it. Very depressing. I should have got 2 cases of Montana Gold bullets instead.

[EmanP]

OK, in what forum do I post a review of the class?

[Aristotle]

I'm truly sorry you and Khar feel that way. That's not a sentiment that is shared by anyone else in the class that I know of, and I spoke to everyone else about it, as well as receiving quite a bit of emails of students happy with the class and it's content, including one from a GM Shooter that took the course. At least 5 have already confirmed for a second class from them in the Fall.

I know you are one tough cookie to please E, and I don't know if it's a case of grass is greener, or the fact that you and Khar have taken a boat load of training, but personally I still stand behind my thoughts of the class. Although there are times you give your opinion very freely, I will not impose on that right for you to do so. With that said, I'm just not sure where you should give your review, but I'd only caution to chose your words wisely, or it may not remain open for very long.

Regards,

Ari

[EmanP]

For lack of a better place to put this and since we've already go it all here....

I've had hundreds of hours worth of training with Kahrnage and dozens of classes and I would have to agree. They are the nicest people and the best shooters out there. They obviously thought everything through very, very well and are really good about getting that information to you. That's about the best part of the weekend though.

I've been looking forward to this class for several months, a long time. I was really excited. Driving home Sunday, I was really depressed, really.

Day of class we were supposed to start at 9, we actually didn't get going until 10. It happens but that's an hour wasted. Then it was 3 hours of talking, which I thought was actually the most useful part of the class. Unfortunately they only reinforced things we already knew from elsewhere. There was one or two differences, but they weren't big. If anyone ever thinks of doing thier future classes, it really helps if you have a warm, quiet place for this first part. We were out in the cold and the shotguns and rifle ranges were going strong, made it difficult to hear some things. Just a comfort thing. Anyway, we didn't really start shooting until 2PM, that's pretty late in the day to finally start going live.

We started with groups. Being so nice, I never heard them say a bad thing even when shots were going into the D zone at 15 yards. Then a few variations of Bill drills with similar results and again, super nice guys. Then we broke it off into two groups one doing movement and the other doing transitions. That was it. Really, that was it for day one. I shot 307rds. After I realized I wasn't going to be getting anything from day one, I went off to the side and did a few more drills on my own, 100rds worth.

On the way home we were complaining about the lack of anything but I tried to keep a positive attitude thinking that tomorrow is the match and who knows what kinds of great things that'll bring. Turns out, no so much.

After the 3rd stage I heard Kahrnage pressing them, "Look, I know I'm not doing everything right. Tell me what I'm doing wrong. I need some feedback." I heard him say that several more times. I played parrot and did the same. We had to drag critique out and what I did get was "You need to be more aggressive" with a lot of very nice things that I did right. But I don't need what I'm doing right. If I'm doing it right, it's not a problem so let's move on to what I'm not doing right. Tell me about that since that's what's holding me back. But I needed to be more agressive was about all I got. And at the end of the day, after the last stage, there was no recap. There was no sit down, no anything. Just a thank you very much. To say I was disappointed would be an understatement. I should have bought two cases of 124gr Montana Gold hollow points instead. That would have been a lot more educational.

But then my view point comes from hundreds of hours of training elsewhere and with other people. I have never shot so little, and gotten so little feedback and felt that it was a waste of time and money. Well, one other time but I won't get into that. We never hit a lot of topics like one handed shooting, scoring, stage math, strange positions much less practiced them. Months before we expressed a concern if we would actually get much attention or if we'd just be supplimenting everyone elses education since it's happened several times and we were reassured that that would not happen. So much for that.

Edited May 27, 2010 by EmanP

[SteveZ]

but I'd only caution to chose your words wisely, or it may not remain open for very long.

I just hope for the sake of having a fair and balanced forum, people deserve to hear the positive and negative sides to the class. The world isn't always rosy as it seems sometimes....especially round here.

[35WLN]

Well, I have zero opinion on the class as I wasn't in it, but the match was another great one. I appreciate all the hard work that goes into thinking up the stages as well as building them. Ari, you always do a great job with it and it is the reason Bill and I travel 3 hours almost every month to shoot it. To everyone that helps with the match, keep up the great work!

[EmanP]

That plank stage was especially tough!

[Kahrnage]

Well, I have zero opinion on the class as I wasn't in it, but the match was another great one. I appreciate all the hard work that goes into thinking up the stages as well as building them. Ari, you always do a great job with it and it is the reason Bill and I travel 3 hours almost every month to shoot it. To everyone that helps with the match, keep up the great work!

I fully agree, it was one of the best local matches I've been to in a while...Aristotle puts a lot of work and thought into his matches and I made sure to thank him for his work before I left.

[HuskySig]

First off Ari, great match. Probably your best yet and we really lucked out with the weather.

As for the class. I didn't take part in the Double Impact class this past weekend, but I took a class from Max and Travis last year. The class I took last year wasn't combined with a club match, so perhaps the comparison isn't quite apples to apples. The first day of my class was almost identical to what was described by EmanP, except for the start times. We started much closer to 9AM with the classroom portion. After a quick lunch we were out on the range to start live fire drills by 1PM.

The second day consisted of a few more drills during the AM. After lunch we headed out to the range where Max and Travis setup two stages around props that were left out from the club's previous match weekend. We were broken up into two groups, with Max taking one group to one stage and Travis taking the other group to the second stage. Max and Travis ran both stages like static ROs at a major match, reading the WSB and giving our "Squad" a five minute walkthrough. After each shooter shot the stage, the other squad members reset the stage while Max or Travis did a one-on-one stage debrief. We were queried as to why we engaged targets in a certain order and then given advice on what they felt was a better possible way to breakdown the particular stage. We were then given a second opportunity to shoot the stage, comparing it to the first run.

As you guys (Ari, EmanP, Kahrnage) know I hung around your squad towards the end of the day. I was shocked/amazed to see how little interaction there was between the students and the teachers. After my experience, I would have totally expected to see either Max or Travis (or both) take the shooter aside for a quick stage debrief while the rest of the squad reset the stage for the next shooter. Instead I saw Max and Travis talking with each other, playing with their phones and reloading their magazines. They did watch each squad member shoot the stage, but they didn't seem too forthcoming with critiques and advice. It's quite possible that by the time I started watching your class squad, Max and Travis were tired after a long weekend. Perhaps they were a lot more generous with advice earlier during the match?

[EmanP]

Nope, that wasn't my experience.

[SteveZ]

That plank stage was especially tough!

Ah...that was a breeze.

I was second up in our squad...maybe that was a good thing because nearly everyone else in our squad blew it one way or another. I had the benefit of just shooting it and not getting psyched out watching others crash and burn.

It felt really slow when I shot it...someone told me I had a good time...I thought they were kidding.

Edited May 27, 2010 by SteveZ

[Victor_R]

That plank stage was especially tough!

Ah...that was a breeze.

I was second up in our squad...maybe that was a good thing because nearly everyone else in our squad blew it one way or another. I had the benefit of just shooting it and not getting psyched out watching others crash and burn.

It felt really slow when I shot it...someone told me I had a good time...I thought they were kidding.

I was first to shoot it in my squad. Tough stage but really fun. The match was one of the best match's I shot even though I had so many mag seating problems. Great job on the match Ari. This was my 3rd USPSA match and this match made me want to shoot more USPSA.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Victor R

[WINGMEN10]

Hey Guys,

I am really surprised that this type of feedback has been presented in such an open format and that it has not been completely overwhelmed by "positive" feedback from the "HUNDREDS" of people in this sport who have had the chance to take a class from any of the World Champions or spent time in a squad with them receiving feedback and words of inspiration. If you think about it from the personal sacrifice perspective it really comes to light. The money is not the reason they do it, because after they fly out to the location, get a hotel, feed themselves, rental ,etc. they do it for the betterment of the sport. They take time away from their families, from their own personal training regime to spend time with people from all levels of the expertise within the sport to make YOU better, and then they leave you with a syllabus to continue training on your own, then give you their cell phone and contact information to call them after class for comments and feedback and still that is not enough. I am sure that if Max and Travis received a phone call that presented these atrocities they would immediately address them and probably offer to conduct some one on one training with those who felt they did not get their moneys worth. I realized during one of the numerous times i have shot a match with these guys that if I would just spend my time watching each portion of their game from stage breakdown thought process to the execution of the plan, each is its own class. Aristo, Good for you for taking time out of YOUR life to coordinate ALL of this and give the opportunity to promote the sport and put on what seemed like an Awesome Local Match! “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” As someone who also has spent hundreds of hours training and executing those actions I trained in places were feedback comes with pain/death association, I consider myself lucky to have any World Champions take time out of their Profession to make me better in my Hobby.

T-VS

[senior frog]

Fellows,

++++++++++++++++++++++1111111111111 Velocity Shooter.

For the rest of you guys who were not pleased with the class. Since they only covered things that you already know then why are you guys not the national and world champions. If you already knew what they were teaching you, then why are you not winning every match you go to? The answer to that question is this, you have a closed mind and think you know everything there is to about this sport. Obviously you dont, or I would see you winning matches. If they are teaching you stuff you already know and winning with it, then obviously they are doing something different... maybe having an open mind... maybe training harder... maybe watching every little thing that someone does to learn as much as possible. I have taken a DI Class from both of these gents and it greatly dissapoints me to see you people bashing them the way you are. I personally have spent thousands of hours training and I still practice everything from that class and it was 3 years ago. They shouldnt have to instruct you like a bunch of 4 year olds. If you really wanted to get better, you study them. you watch them. you see what they do, and you copy it. Like Velocity Shooter said, these guys are taking time away from their personal training time and their families to come help you guys. Them just showing up, should help you. They dont have any spectacular piece of knowledge that sets them apart from anyone else. They have an open mind and they absorb anything and everything that comes in their direction. Even now that they are the best, they are still not the best. Their is still plenty for them to learn and improve on. But you guys dont need that right? You guys already know all this and just choose not to win national and world titles. Moving more aggressively is by far one of the most important things in this sport. If you move like you have a ton of lead stuffed up your a** then your probably not going to shoot fast are you? Be aggressive and the speed comes along with it. For everyone here who bashed that class should be ashamed in themselves. Any knowledge from a proffesional such as themselves should never be taken for granted and overlooked. They do alot for this sport and you all should stop betraying them and absorb what they taught and run with it, make the best of it. Bc trust me, you guys dont know everything.

Just my 2 cents.

--Senior Frog

[konkapot]

Is this the part where people get beat up for relating their experiences?

I wonder what Teddy Roosevelt would have said about guys paying good money for training that didn't meet their expectations.

FY42385

[Kahrnage]

The last couple posters seem to indicate that the altruistic intentions of the trainers and their very presence should be enough, that we have no right of expectation for our class fees, and that any mention of disappointment is intended as personal attacks upon them. It's sad that some aren't entitled to an opinion by the opinion of others.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Kahrnage

[Sudden Death]

Ok, everyone has the right to their own opinion, so here is mine. I just orginized and had a class with Travis and Max it was a great experance and I think I can say that on behalf of the class, except for a little weather problem, but we made due, they did everything that they wanted to cover, maybe not as long of time due to rain shower and t-storms. It sounds to me you 2 guys wanted a class designed around you 2, I bet there was probally 12 to 14 other people there that a few of them was not the caliber you guys are but they probally got the most out of the class, but Travis and Max has to design a class for people from D to GM shooters, now I understand being the high caliber guys you are, that just maybe you feel you did not get your moneys worth, I kinda think it should have been up to you guys to see what the class was going to cover and then decide if the class was right for you, your right $550 is no drop in the bucket, but I seems to me that what you guys are really upset about is you did not check and see what the class is going to cover and you could not get your money back. As for my Max and Travis class I would do it againg if the chance comes around again, but I will tell you this I will ask that they make it more advanced than the first one, not that there was something wrong with the first class just so we dont over lap classes.

[Kahrnage]

Ok, everyone has the right to their own opinion, so here is mine. I just orginized and had a class with Travis and Max it was a great experance and I think I can say that on behalf of the class, except for a little weather problem, but we made due, they did everything that they wanted to cover, maybe not as long of time due to rain shower and t-storms. It sounds to me you 2 guys wanted a class designed around you 2, I bet there was probally 12 to 14 other people there that a few of them was not the caliber you guys are but they probally got the most out of the class, but Travis and Max has to design a class for people from D to GM shooters, now I understand being the high caliber guys you are, that just maybe you feel you did not get your moneys worth, I kinda think it should have been up to you guys to see what the class was going to cover and then decide if the class was right for you, your right $550 is no drop in the bucket, but I seems to me that what you guys are really upset about is you did not check and see what the class is going to cover and you could not get your money back. As for my Max and Travis class I would do it againg if the chance comes around again, but I will tell you this I will ask that they make it more advanced than the first one, not that there was something wrong with the first class just so we dont over lap classes.

Erroneous presumptions aside thank you for your opinion and comments on how the class you put together went. As for the sarcasm...now I can appreciate that.

The erroneous presumptions-that we did not research the class before hand or that we wanted/requested a refund.

We fully expressed our concerns about making sure the class was right for us before hand to the organizer and were involved in multiple emails on the subject. Yes TT/MM were involved in the discussion.

At no time did we ever request a refund or even mention it. We participated in the class and they were paid for their time; simple as that. Not sure how you arrived at this particular presumption.

You have my gratitude for your opinions and comments on the class you organized. I think most of us value open discussion on any number of topics because whether we like it or not many of the decisions we make are based on information from others (optics, holsters, guns, you name it). I was sent a PM thanking me for my original comments from someone else who seems to have experienced similar occurrences in his years of training. So even though my opinion is deferent than yours there are others that have been in my proverbial shoes as well as yours.

As for the sarcasm…I’m a fan!

It could be misunderstood that we think more of our abilities than anyone else and again, I can appreciate the sarcasm. The facts are that we have taken many training classes and normally know what to expect and we hoped for great things from this class that just didn’t materialize. That doesn’t mean we expected a class designed solely for us, yes there were 12 students, yes some of them probably got more out of the class than us but when did it become okay to pay that much money to subsidize other peoples training just because they have more to learn (maybe in Obama’s world but not in mine). Even you said that a more advanced class would be requested if you put on another one…so you recognize that there were topics that could have been covered that would be more applicable to someone looking for more advanced training topics.

p.s. not trying to single you out just thought you had one of the more reasonable comments to respond to.

[Kahrnage]

Is this the part where people get beat up for relating their experiences?

Apparently so. I love how posters use direct attacks to offset an honest opinion with no malicious intent and couple it with outright presumptions of my intent or actions. But I'm the one that doesn't have an open mind

[SteveZ]

I love how posters use direct attacks to offset an honest opinion with no malicious intent and couple it with outright presumptions of my intent or actions.

The beatings will continue until morale improves!