Are you required to activate a moving target before engaging it?

[Skydiver]

Are you required to activate a moving target before engaging it? Does a stage description need to designate which targets are moving targets?

The written stage briefing in a Level I match only said "Start position: holding on to shovel with both hands, blade of shovel touching the ground. On start signal, put shovel in proper storage location and then engage targets as they become available within the shooting area."

The course designer's intent was that the bobber with two targets would be activated by stepping on a pressure pad. Unfortunately, the two targets were only partially obscured by some barrels and a vision barrier. There were many angles within the shooting area that the targets' A zones were safely and easily available within the shooting area while still in their pre-activated state.

Nothing in the written stage description said that these where moving targets that must be activated before engaging. In fact, the WSB didn't even make mention that these targets were activated/moving targets.

Some people contended that the target must be activated before engaging it in a Level I match.

My reading of of 9.9.4 is that in a Level I match, penalties will be applied only if the written stage briefing prohibits engagement of certain targets prior to activation. Since the briefing failed to do so, those targets could be engaged anytime they were available.

(As as aside, the MD had declared that it was legal to engage the targets without activating the bobber.)

[Nik Habicht]

Your reading of 9.9.4 is correct. The RM could invoke a "Forbidden action" though, but that might be a huge can of worms, in terms of re-shoots....

[SteveZ]

Some people contended that the target must be activated before engaging it in a Level I match.

Let me guess who that might have been...

Well, unless otherwise designated in a Level I match...they can be engaged before activated...but they must be activated at some point during the COF. Level I's can require in the WSB that you CAN'T engage the targets before activation. Level II's require that the targets CAN'T be engage before activation (and must be corrected using hardcover).

[Joe4d]

Some people contended that the target must be activated before engaging it in a Level I match.

Let me guess who that might have been...

Well, unless otherwise designated in a Level I match...they can be engaged before activated...but they must be activated at some point during the COF. Level I's can require in the WSB that you CAN'T engage the targets before activation. Level II's require that the targets CAN'T be engage before activation (and must be corrected using hardcover).

Can you quote a rule there ? I dont see anything that says they must be activated, nor do I see anything about Level II's not saying it isnt there I just dont see it.

[LPatterson]

Start with 9.9.3 which says "Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalities if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement."

2.1.8.5 "Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to activation."

2.1.8.5.1 Is the Level I exemption for 9.9.4 if it is in the WSB.

[Joe4d]

and there we have it, if it'd been a snake it would have bit me.

[Flexmoney]

Skydiver,

It sounds like you have it well figured out.

The right call seems to have been made at the match too.

Though the call falls on the Range Master and not the Match Director.

[SteveZ]

Ok now that we have resolved that one, let me take this in a different direction (that the MD of the match that Skydiver was referencing). We'll start with the first question and expand it from there. Is a Texas Star considered from a rulebook perspective a "moving target"?

Edited May 2, 2010 by SteveZ

[XRe]

The Texas Star is considered 5 plates that happen to move in a quasi-random fashion after you start engaging them. It's neither an activated target, nor a "moving target" in the sense that the rulebook is discussing in these rules. However, what if it were? What activates it? Engaging one of the five plates. So, if you don't want to take misses on all five plates (and possibly FTEs) you have to activate the "moving targets". I don't see any issue with this...

[SteveZ]

However, what if it were? What activates it? Engaging one of the five plates. So, if you don't want to take misses on all five plates (and possibly FTEs) you have to activate the "moving targets". I don't see any issue with this...

Ok...so lets go down the "moving target" definition path for a moment. If it were a moving target (or more specifically the plates themselves are considered moving targets), then they fall into one of two catagories, disappearing targets and appearing targets. I've yet to see a Texas Star where the plates eventually disappear so we'll proceed with "appearing" for sake of discussion. I've seen two basic "flavors" of Texas starts, those that start their movement by shooting a plate, and those that start their movement by doing something to activate them (like stepping on a bear trap, shooting a popper or tripping a wire).

Ok...now shift your consideration to a Level II match. Rule 2.1.8.5 says Appearing scoring targets must be designed and constructed to be obscured to the competitor (during the course of fire) prior to activation. Which means, the plates on the Star couldn't be visible before the Star is activated. At level II matches, there is no exemption for 2.1.8.5.1 like there is for Level I. You could argue that the first class of Texas Star (the ones that don't start moving until you shoot a plate off) don't fall into the "moving target" definition (with appearing targets) but those other Texas Star that do start by doing something, certainly would seem to fit the definition.

[Nik Habicht]

Ok now that we have resolved that one, let me take this in a different direction (that the MD of the match that Skydiver was referencing). We'll start with the first question and expand it from there. Is a Texas Star considered from a rulebook perspective a "moving target"?

The Texas Star is considered 5 plates that happen to move in a quasi-random fashion after you start engaging them. It's neither an activated target, nor a "moving target" in the sense that the rulebook is discussing in these rules. However, what if it were? What activates it? Engaging one of the five plates. So, if you don't want to take misses on all five plates (and possibly FTEs) you have to activate the "moving targets". I don't see any issue with this...

I'd call that partially correct -- it really comes down to how it's set up. It's possible to make a Texas star a moving target with a barge stick and a weight and some form of activating mechanism -- popper, door, activator box, swinging turnstile, port cover, etc.

Then at a Level 1 you can require activation prior to engagement in the WSB, or make it optional --- perhaps have a popper activate it early, allowing a potentially faster run through the stage? At a Level 2 and above, you'd have to hide the star, so that it could only be seen after activation....

[SteveZ]

At a Level 2 and above, you'd have to hide the star, so that it could only be seen after activation....

Word to your mother!

Thats exactly it! Texas Star type targets that are activated by doing something (other than shooting a plate off)...have to be completely hidden from view prior to activation to comply with 2.1.8.5.

So what are the chances of a normal Texas Star being defined as a "moving target" and any one of the plates on it being considered the "activating" plate which then causes the Star to begin its (slow) movement?

[Flexmoney]

At a Level 2 and above, you'd have to hide the star, so that it could only be seen after activation....

?

Only "appearing targets" might fall under that, right?

(2.1.8.5 being a "new rule")

I thought the idea was that if you can see the target, you can shoot the target.

Then, for local (Level I) matches, an exemption was given so that the Match Director didn't have to burn up lots of props, time and people (resources)...as long as they wrote into the WSB that the activating target needed to be activated before engaging.

So, at a Level-II and up, if you want a target to be "appearing" it is on you to make it so in the design and setup. I don't think that means any target that moves needs to be hidden.

[Skydiver]

At a Level 2 and above, you'd have to hide the star, so that it could only be seen after activation....

?

Only "appearing targets" might fall under that, right?

(2.1.8.5 being a "new rule")

I thought the idea was that if you can see the target, you can shoot the target.

:

So, at a Level-II and up, if you want a target to be "appearing" it is on you to make it so in the design and setup. I don't think that means any target that moves needs to be hidden.

See the logic that SteveZ goes through in post #10 to consider the activated star's plates as an "appearing" target. Either there's a hole in the logic, or there's a gray area in the rules, or something else?

[Flexmoney]

yeah...I didn't like his logic.

Ok...so lets go down the "moving target" definition path for a moment. If it were a moving target (or more specifically the plates themselves are considered moving targets), then they fall into one of two catagories, disappearing targets and appearing targets.

I don't agree with his if/then.

A moving target need not be appearing/disappearing...it can just be moving.

Could be some new grayness in the rulebook, but he is presenting something (that I consider) a new way of looking at things.

[wileecoyote37]

A match is some times discribed as a battle of wits between the MD and the shooter. As such I sometimes go to battle unarmmed.

With no definition of a moving target why can't I say "it didn't move (never activated) there fore it is not a moving target?"

Edited May 2, 2010 by wileecoyote37

[Nik Habicht]

Flex,

what I was trying to get at was this: In a Level 2 or above, if you want the star moving before engagement, you'd better hide it, or set the activating mechanism so far away that there's a disadvantage to shooting the star prior to activation. Hiding it -- treating it as an appearing target -- is probably the better practice.....

At a Level 1, I'd think you could stipulate the activate prior to engaging scenario....

[Schutzenmeister]

Flexmoney is absolutely correct ... Just because a target is moving doesn't mean it is appearing or disappearing. Those are different issues. The "hidden" before and/or after movement requirement only applies to appearing/disappearing targets.

If you want a simple "start the star spinning before the shooter can shoot it" type setup, try activating the star by opening a door (counter weight and pull-stick setup.) There, the shooter cannot see the star before he opens the door ... Hence it is hidden until activated. (Just one method of doing it!)

[Flexmoney]

Flex,

what I was trying to get at was this: In a Level 2 or above, if you want the star moving before engagement, you'd better hide it, or set the activating mechanism so far away that there's a disadvantage to shooting the star prior to activation. Hiding it -- treating it as an appearing target -- is probably the better practice.....

At a Level 1, I'd think you could stipulate the activate prior to engaging scenario....

Sure, but that is the same for anything. If you don't want it shot from a certain position...hide it from that position. But, if they can see it from within the shooting area, they can shoot it.

What I am getting at is that movement doesn't have to mean appearing or disappearing.