DogmaDog Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 OK, ran into this situation at my match this weekend: Virginia count classifier with three strings. Shooter fires an extra shot on the first string, and then saves a round on the third string. Total number of shots and hits on each target for the whole course is correct. Does the shooter receive any penalties, and if so, under what rules? By the way, the shooter was me, (what the hell was I thinking??? I called a D and made it up, then said "Dammit!") The RO ruled no penalty after consulting his rule book. Thanks, DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 If the course of fire says, "String 2: Engage T1-T3 with two rounds each," and you only shot 1 round at T3, then you didn't follow the procedure and you deserve a procedural penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 I agree with Erik but I would also add that a second procedual is due for the extra shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Depending on how it is written...likely two procedurals. - one for the extra shot (on one string) - one for not following the procedure ("not engaging each with two", on the next string) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Hi guys, At first view, I tend to agree with Flex, but I reserve my final call until I know exactly what was stated in the written stage briefing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted December 22, 2003 Author Share Posted December 22, 2003 The course was Classifier # 99-39 "Off Balance Blast" http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3593 I shot it in 23.23 seconds with 106 pts, for a HF of 4.5631 (without any penalties assessed) If you would assess two penalties for the way I actually shot it, would I have avoided one by throwing a shot into the berm on the third string? Thanks, DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 DD, Your proposal should leave you with a single penalty for the extra shot.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 The way you shot it, you didn't follow the written procedure in two instances (Whether that is... one extra shot penalty and one prodecural, or just two procedurals...i'm not sure off hand. I'm think it is two procedurals.) The cheapest way out, once you threw the extra shot on string one is to do what you proposed in your last post. Shoot one into the berm on a later string (to avoid the "extra hit" penalty). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 DD, On string 1, you fired an extra shot. One procedural. On string 3, you failed to satisfy the course description. Second procedural. The solution would have been as you and Flex stated, to fire a nothing round into the berm. It satisfies the string requirements, and by firing into the berm, you don't risk an extra hit penalty (potential third procedural). Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Hi guys, I concur with Flex and uscbigdawg - 2 procedurals, reducing to 1 if you fired a "wayward" shot, as suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Applicable current US rules: 9.4.4 In a Virginia Count Standard Exercise course of fire:9.4.4.1 Extra shots (more than the number specified) shall constitute a procedural penalty for each extra shot 10.1.4.3 If a competitor fails to comply with a procedure specified in the stage briefing, the competitor shall incur a single procedural penalty for each occurrence. So you get the Extra Shot procedural penalty in the one string and the general procedural penalty in the other string. BTW, USPSA classifier scoresheets, for VC courses, have a special box for recording Extra Shots. It's -10 either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted December 23, 2003 Author Share Posted December 23, 2003 OK, So what does a shooter do, when he believes he should have been assessed penalties, but was not? At the time, it didn't seem appropriate to protest a call in my favor...it woulda looked pretty absurd. So what do I do? DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 DD, If you feel you should be awarded a penalty, just tell the RO you're willing to take it like a man, and I'm sure he'll accommodate you or seek guidance from a higher ranking official. There've been cases of competitors DQing themselves when the RO didn't do it, for one reason or another. It's not in the rulebook - it's in your conscience - and you obviously have one. However don't feel bad about the last time - clearly you've reflected on this incident, I know you feel bad about it, and that alone raises your stock in my book by 20 points. I don't know you personally, but I'm proud of you. Happy Holidays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted December 23, 2003 Author Share Posted December 23, 2003 Awww Vince, I'm tempted to burst your bubble and tell you I'm just sandbagging, and a 69% classifier won't help keep me in C class. That's not true, though. USPSA might just ignore it because it's more than 15% above my current average, anyway. Anyway, I appreciate all your replies. Hopefully I'll shoot Virginia Count stages correctly from here on, or at least execute the best "damage control" strategy to minimize penalties. I did think the ROs interpretation (I fired incorrect numbers of rounds on STRINGS, but not in the COURSE, which is what the rules address) was a stretch. If there's a next time, I'll tactfully ask for a penalty. Semper Fi, and Merry Christmas, DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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