BayouSlide
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Posts posted by BayouSlide
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Run a G34 and my PF is the 136-139 range because my pistol just seems to run better at that. Same when I use that exact load in my G17. Range drops to around 132-134 or so.
Ditto. You saved me some typing. Your numbers are exactly the same as mine.
When I tried running lower PF numbers, the gun felt sluggish.
Curtis
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Set T 3-4 and T 11-12 really low and the steel back to the 10 yd spot and you are going to be fine.
You can always use your Stage Setup Notes for particulars like this as well.
Nice work
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Spanky, you want to make sure that there are no paper targets in line with your steel from any potential shooting location. It looks you may have a problem with that unless it was addressed during set up. Per 9.1.5.2, a shoot through that strikes down a popper is considered range equipment failure, necessitating reshoots and resulting in match delays.
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Also a good stage, but the steel needs to be moved back. The steel in the second one is way too close to the front and engageable from the open spots in the side walls.
As a rule, you need at least 7 yds between the steel and the shooter. Most clubs run 10yds or more, and try to keep the steel towards the back berm to help with frag and possible bullets skipping over the berms.
Per 2.1.3, steel must be a minimum of 23 feet away, or 26 feet if only a fault line exists, to account for the possibility of a foot fault.
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Lucky guys! Still way too steamy and summerlike around here for my taste.
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Edited: 'cause I hate typos!
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Thanks guys!
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No base pads.
Flex, based on the new revisions to the Production rules, base pads are specifically allowed if they fit in the box.
From NROI Interpretation for the Production Division Equipment Rules
(Appendix D4), June 25, 2009
21.7 (New) Magazines Prior restrictions on magazines have been
lifted. OEM and aftermarket magazines and
base-pads may be used. However, any and
all magazines used in competition, must fit
into the USPSA box while empty and
inserted in the handgun as described in item
7 of this appendix. Grip tape and/or skate
board tape are specifically allowed on
magazines and base-pads
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Slick set up. I've always been a fan of Maxpedition products.
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In response there has been a lot of hand wringing about not wanting to change the rules and opinions about it, but no cogent explanation of why that would be a bad idea.
Actually, from my reading, there have been a lot of citations of the rule book which show that the rules are very clear as they stand now. Which has nothing to do with whether or not they should be changed.
The most you should expect from an RO is strict adherence to the rule book. Work to change the rules if you're unhappy with them. You'll find a lot of posts from me during period of comment on the recent revisions to the rules in Production: I thought the most recent rule book didn't fairly address some issues regarding modifications. Many people, but not everyone, felt the same: those rules were changed. That's the way to deal with the issue, not asking match officials to read between the lines of the rule book to find something that's not there.
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And 4.6.1 does say "REF includes ... the malfunction of mechanically .... operated equipment"
That is correct, but the overriding rule here is C.1.6, IMO, which is what I would have to apply in this issue. You might on the surface be able to make a case for 4.6.1 here, but let's look at the entire clause:
"Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all
competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of
paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the
failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of
mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of
props such as openings, ports, and barriers."
In context, I would not be inclined to consider a popper "mechanically or electrically operated equipment." Steel targets were covered under the wording I bolded-italicized. I read "mechanically or electrically operated equipment" as the mechanisms that activate or move targets like movers or swingers. Granted, there is a small amount of wiggle room here, but in this case C.1.6 so directly covers the incident that it holds sway, IMO. When the shooter drove down the target, she crossed the Rubicon, unfortunately. It was a decision for the shooter and it was made.
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Edited: 'cause I hate typos!
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Not trying to be an advocate for the ROs here, or for the shooter, just trying to be an impartial observer based on the rules. Unfortunately, once the competitor made the choice to shoot down the popper then, even if there was something wrong with it, under the current rules (C.1.6) this is how it had to play out. Don't shoot the messenger, but if I had been the CRO, or on the arb committee, I would have no choice but to rule exactly the same way they did. That's how the current rule book reads. It's absolutely clear. If they had decided to go off on the page on this ruling, there would be other competitors who would have a legitimate bone to pick with them—and probably would have been quick to do so.
Whether, ultimately, the whole incident was fair or not, or whether that rule should be changed, is another question and worthy of debate.
The second hardest thing about being an RO is knowing the all the rules, the hardest thing is applying them consistently and properly in the midst of all the gray areas that present themselves in a match.
We're shooters too. And I approach every match with the understanding that, for every competitor, U to GM, whether local or Level III, this is an important match that deserves my best efforts in being impartial and knowledgeable in applying the rules so they have as level a playing field as possible.
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I'm guessing that most people posting on this thread that the RO should stop the shooter after the first hit are not at this match and have zero personal knowledge of the stage in question. I'm guessing that because everbody I saw shoot the stage or talked to took multiple shots on the steel. Not because it didn't work but because it worked exactly as it was supposed to. It concealed another target and forced the shooter to either drive it down quickly with multiple shots or to hit it and wait. This is freestyle. Every shooter on my squad ( except the guy who had a jam after the first shot) drove the popper down with 2-3 shots. There was time to get number 4 on but it probably wouldn't have helped that much. With a setup of 2-3 shots on the front target and one more on the back the RO prabably wouldn't have realized something was up till rounds 5-6. Randi's a pretty darn good shooter and those rounds likely took well under a second before the popper was going down (6-8, not all of them). The RO's at National matches are some of the best in the country, but there is no way to CONSITENTLY officiate the more than one round proposal on a stage like that.
Excellent point, Chuck, an important one that had not been brought up thus far....This particular set up calls for multiple shots to drop the popper as quickly as possible to get to the final steel, which will stop the clock. Even for competitors with mag limitations like Production, you will probably go into that position with a full or nearly full mag. I know I did when I shot that stage at our monthly match in October. The seconds cost the same whether you're shooting or waiting for the popper to fall. How many of those eight hits occurred as the steel had barely begun to fall, with the sort of split times expected from a national caliber competitor? This particular stage would be a bad example to use to make a case for an RO to call REF on the fly, even if the rules permitted it.
Personally, as an RO I follow the rule book. If the rules change, I follow the new rules. No problem either way. The rules may be clear, but I can understand the reasoning of those who offer a compelling rationale for changing them. However, we have to also realize that the more discretion we give to the RO in a case like this, the more we increase the likelihood of varying interpretation, which can also serve to un-level the playing field.
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Edited: 'cause I hate typos!
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The rules are clear....they are designed for how to handle when the popper is hit ONCE. The rule book does not cover 100% of the situations.....that is why RO's must sometimes use common sense in order to make everything as fair for everyone as possible.
Actually, the rules cover it quite clearly if it's hit once...or more than once. If the rules intended otherwise, we would have no procedure for shooter choice or calibration.
4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score.
Scoring Poppers which fail to fall when hit, are subject to the
provisions of Appendix C1, 6 & 7.
From C. 6
6. If, during a course of fire, a popper does not fall when hit, a competitor has
three alternatives:
a. The popper is shot again until it falls. In this case, no further action is
required and the course of fire is scored “as shot”.
b. The popper is left standing but the competitor does not challenge the
calibration. In this case, no further action is required and the course of
fire is scored “as shot”, with the subject popper scored as a miss.
c. The popper is left standing and the competitor challenges the calibration.
Not trying to beat this to death but, to me, the greatest unfairness occurs when we don't understand the rules and apply them consistently.
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This is a simple "use your commone sense" situation for a RO. In cases where one of the RO's see where a shooter has hit a popper in the circle multiple times, they should immediately stop the shooter.....especially on an activating piece of steel. There is obviously range equipment failure or something seriously wrong with the stage/equipment.
That is the FAIR thing to do for the shooter. I know when I see three hits inside the circle, it is range equipment failure immediately.
Now the return argument would be - maybe the shooter's ammo wasn't meeting minimum power factor. Well, that will be determined at the chrono. If they are shooting sub-minor, they will not be scored within the match and thus the re-shoot would not have been 'unfair' for the remainder of the shooters.
This situation and SO many of the rules in the rulebook should be looked at with - WHAT is the rule trying to say. The reason that level of knowledge is needed is so that when that one weird situation erupts, the RO can make a FAIR ruling. The rules concerning popper and their calibration is really geared around ONE hit on the popper.....if it takes more than one acceptable hit, it is range equipment failure by definition.
In this particular case, when a popper had to be hit so many times within the circle, the RO should have stopped the shooter.....it would been the FAIR thing to do for all.
I can understand the frustration. Unfortunately, "common sense" is a slippery slope. The present rules are actually very clear on this issue. Reading between the lines opens up the issue of fairness regarding varying interpretations from match to match and RO to RO.
Someone much wiser than me said "That's why they are rules, not suggestions." Rules are like glass in that respect: they can't be bent, only broken.
It's in the rule book and it's clearly stated. Until the rules are changed, this is what we have to work with.
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Edited: to add a point and 'cause I hate typos!
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If I remember correctly from my RO class the scorekeeper is also an RO for the stage and CAN stop the shooter based on the popper not falling; range failure and reshoot. Declared pf is considered valid until proven incorrect at the chrono.
Under 4.6, REF would only apply to a popper that wasn't reset (or one that fell due to wind or other outside influence, i.e. premature activation), not one that didn't fall after being hit. Calibration challenge is the only recourse for one that doesn't fall when hit.
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Sure, steel poses the occasional problem. But the vast majority of the time it works as intended, as Nik notes, if the stage crew does it's job properly. When it doesn't, the rules already in place provide a manner of dealing with it without adding an unreasonable amount of time or complicating issues of match management. If it presents continual problems, the stage can and should be pulled.
But the final recourse is always in the hands of the competitor. To me, the competitor has to make a judgement...and should be prepared to do so in a split second during a run. Personally, if a popper didn't fall for me after two solid hits, I'd move on and call for calibration, because at that point I'd be reasonably confident that the rules in place would set things straight.
This particular issue has resulted in a thought-provoking discussion, and a raised awareness of the potential issues with steel that I haven't personally experienced. But all the proposed solutions have potential downsides as well, it seems to me. I guess I would fall into the camp of preferring the status quo. Personally, this particular incident would make me prefer to have critical pieces of steel reset and checked by an RO rather than by competitors, to make sure it was staying free and consistent in operation for everyone over the course of the match.
People with more major match experience than me may feel differently and I'm interested in their viewpoints.
Edited to add: FWIW, our local club set up and shot this exact stage from the Nationals at our last monthly match without any issues.
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Stubb's for beef, Sweet Baby Ray's for pork or chicken.
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The biggest problem with getting your CRO cert is that now everybody will expect you to be the world's expert on every rule in the book, and every published clarification.
A brain implant with periodic downloaded updates is probably the best way to handle that.
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My wife and I would both like to pre order shirts.
Tell me how!
We are looking forward to the Gator again this year.
What's for lunch?
See the link in Post #36.
In the past, lunch has often been jambalaya.
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Now that Nik has nicely separated this out I can say that it shouldn't matter if the popper is down-why should it matter if it is down or not to be calibrated? I know the rules say it has to be left standing, but that could be changed. If it takes 5 shots to hammer a popper down, it's not working right. We set it up after each shooter for the next shooter so what would be wrong to set it up for a calibration check? Would take about a minute. If it works, ok. If it doesn't -reshoot. I don't get the left standing part. DVC
Because poppers have a certain mechanical element they are kind of like a river...you never stand in the same river twice...and a popper once it falls can't be guaranteed to be exactly the same as it was standing. That's why the rule is written the way it is. Poppers are imperfect and the rules on calibration are as good as it will get.
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I love your name, I love Bayou Teche, and I love Sonny Landreth, but I have to respectfully disagree. Why can the rules on calibration not get better? I know you know a lot more about this than I do, I am just a shooter, but steel f**** up a lot, it's the nature of steel. As Xre pointed out, there are many angles to poppers falling. Targets change, poppers change, new targets get introduced. Is there some background on poppers that we need to know about that make them impervious to rule changes or modifications? Thanks.
Sonny's an acquaintance of mine who lives one town farther down the Teche than I do...I'll pass on your best wishes next time I see him
I agree with you completely that steel is imperfect. Some type of poppers work better than others but all pose potential problems. I've been on both sides of the issue. I've ROed shooters who have had problems with poppers and I've had problems myself...once requested for a calibration in a Level II match due to a popper than didn't fall and won the calibration.
But once a popper is down, there is no way to test the exact same popper that the shooter was shooting at. That is the root of the problem. The bolt may have moved and bound up a little, for example, but once the popper finally falls after multiple hits, it's now freed up and working fine. If the shooter moved on, the popper probably wouldn't fall during the calibration...but then again, maybe it might because the earlier hit that didn't take it down loosened it up a little. Conversely, if the ground is getting beaten up, with every fall, the popper's base may be moving it's upright angle a degree or more backwards or forward, which will affect its operation and what sort of hit will take it down. Some of the new forward falling poppers may work a little more consistently. But the point is, there are a lot of variables that can affect a poppers operation and once it falls, it becomes nearly impossible to duplicate exactly its condition during the shooter's run. We shooters in Production with minor PF ammo have the toughest decisions in this regard.
Poppers are always more problematic than a straightforward hit on paper. Once an RO has to start making judgement calls on why multiple hits don't drop it, we've traded one problem for another. Ultimately, the decision is and should be in the shooter's hands. If you hit it solid in the calibration zone and you know your ammo is to spec, then move on and call for a calibration. If you're not sure, hit it again and then move on. To me, the present system may not seem perfect, but it's as fair as possible considering the variables that poppers can present.
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Now that Nik has nicely separated this out I can say that it shouldn't matter if the popper is down-why should it matter if it is down or not to be calibrated? I know the rules say it has to be left standing, but that could be changed. If it takes 5 shots to hammer a popper down, it's not working right. We set it up after each shooter for the next shooter so what would be wrong to set it up for a calibration check? Would take about a minute. If it works, ok. If it doesn't -reshoot. I don't get the left standing part. DVC
Because poppers have a certain mechanical element they are kind of like a river...you never stand in the same river twice...and a popper once it falls can't be guaranteed to be exactly the same as it was standing. That's why the rule is written the way it is. Poppers are imperfect and the rules on calibration are as good as it will get.
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George Jones held my feet to the fire throughout the course work, and I'm a better range officer because of it. Sometimes during the course, when I felt I knew only half as much as I needed to know, he'd help me realize I knew twice as much as when I started out...and that the key to uncovering that other half was within the pages of a well-thumbed rule book
Thanks, again, George, for all your time and patience.
I think I'm most proud just to be part of an organization like USPSA that puts so much effort into improving our knowledge so that we can continue to raise the standard of our matches. And I'm especially grateful to all those individuals with the NROI who put in so much time into teaching and sharing their years of experience.
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The only thing that may make a difference for you is primer sensitivity, depending on your set up. Trigger work on pistols or revolvers may lighten the strike on the primer, making more sensitive primers more reliable than harder primers.
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Edited: 'cause I hate typos!
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http://www.bayoushooter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23858
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Oops...I now see scooterj already added one to his earlier post
magazines for Glock
in Glock
Posted
My experience is different from Nik's on the 10-rounders. I have used six of these for practice nearly twice a week for the last few years. I actually used to use them in matches, until I had occasional problems with them. I change springs yearly (I've never changed springs in my hi-caps) and I've gotten them fairly reliable by swapping some of the followers, but I have and continue to have numerous failures to feed in practice, especially when the gun is dirty. In my experience they are, at best, OK if you have to use them, but certainly no where near as reliable as the metal-lined hi-caps. YMMV.
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