Bill T

For about the last year or so I have had a lot of issues with muscle and joint pain. I thought it was just from old age setting in. It got to the point when I would get down on the living room carpet to play with the dog, I could hardly get up! It really hurt. Then about 6 months ago I had a doctors appointment for a checkup and routine blood panel, and he called me to tell me I had a large Vitamin D deficiency. He also was questioning my Thyroid results. He said that could be effected by me lacking Vitamin D as well. He told me to immediately start taking 2,000 units a day. So I did. I couldn't believe the difference! Within a couple of weeks I started to improve. Most all the muscle and joint pain I was having went away. I can bounce up off the floor like I was 30. I just had my blood panel redone, and my thyroid was completely normal. I had no idea Vitamin D was that important. He said many adults in their 60's lack it. So now I make sure I take 2,000 units a day regularly. All of the pain and discomfort I was experiencing all went away. The stuff is cheap, and can really improve your life. Try it and see. I doubt you will be disappointed in the results.

If Frog Lube requires heat to "spread it", it stands to reason extreme cold is going to make it thicker or harder. The same thing happens to candle wax.

The longer this thread goes on, the more compelled I feel to ask, Where are all of these "dezincification" problems regarding wet tumbling cartridge brass? And why haven't we been hearing about them.....Anywhere?

Bruno's Shooters Supply here in Phoenix told me that powder will be in very short supply until next Summer. Especially in 8 pound containers. Right now they've got all they can do to put out 1 pound containers with any availability. The demand for powder is going to be short until the manufacturers can up the supply. This is because demand IS NOT decreasing, or is it expected to. This is due to the fact that in the last year more people have gotten into reloading than in the last 10 years combined. There have been a lot of shooters who were sitting on the fence about reloading. This past years ammo shortage has convinced them to take the plunge. This has increased the demand for reloading powder, primers, and bullets. Most factory ammunition is not loaded with powders reloaders use. They utilize canister grade powders not available to reloaders. These powders are run in large lots for the factories who order them. Only recently have primers become more available, and that is because they are easier to increase production on. .22 ammo will continue to be all but non existent as well. More firearms have been sold in this past year, and this has pushed the demand for ammunition and reloading supplies even higher. Naturally prices have gone way up on everything, and from the looks of things, they're not going to be coming down any time soon. About the only thing that has not been included in all of this has been shotgun ammo. The demand for it has remained somewhat steady since Newtown. Lead shot however has gone up tremendously. It is currently selling for around $50.00 a bag, (25 pounds).

+1 Changing your oil and filter frequently is far more important than what kind of oil you use.

I've got a batch of .300 Win. Mag. cases I'm going to wet tumble. I'm going to leave out the Lemi-Shine, and just go with hot water and Dawn. I'll report on the sucess of it.

Mobil 1

Did you happen to look at the fired case that came out of it?

I'm Diabetic. I don't drink. Try again.

Trident, I'm done with you. You want to argue, I don't. Personally, I could care less what you do or don't believe. I've most likely been reloading longer than you've been alive, (42 years). And I don't need or want your advice. I'm tired of hearing about your "credentials", that you wave around in every post, like some type of badge of honor. They and you do not impress me. Have a nice day.

You need to work on your comprehension. I didn't say you can "see dezincification". What I said is you can see imperfections inside the case, that you cannot otherwise view. Because other tumbling methods do not produce the internal cleanliness wet tumbling in Stainless Steel does. Internal rings that begin to form right before head separation for example. Shoulder and case neck splits that just begin to form from frequent reloading. This has nothing to do with dezincification, but can be caused by the case itself being stretched by improper headspace, and work hardening associated with extensive full length resizing. You're trying to read things that simply are not there. As I said, if this was happening you would be hearing about it with regularity on more than one reloading forum, from a hell of a lot more than one or two people. All your fear mongering about law suits and jail is foolish and irresponsible, because you cannot produce one single case failure that was brought about by dezincification caused by tumbling in Stainless Steel Media. When you can, come back and you'll have something to discuss. Now you do not.

I use the same, but with Lemi-Shine. I might try a batch without the Lemi-Shine just to see. Also www.pelletsllc.com has some solutions avaliable designed for brass case cartridge cleaning. They sell their pellets to reloading places like Sinclair International.

Here is a bucket of 2,500 rounds of .223 / 5.56 MM that have been both wet tumbled in Stainless Steel Media, and dry polished in ground corn cob at least 5 times. The other cases are some .223 range pick up brass I brought home, that I picked off the ground at my local club. They were almost black from remaining on the ground so long, not to mention many were half filled with dried, caked mud. You can see how they came out both inside and out. There is no way this could be achieved with any other type of media. If anything, I believe the Stainless Steel Media makes for SAFER brass, simply because it allows for viewing the slightest imperfection the case may have, on either the inside or outside. Normal ground corn cob cannot achieve this type of cleanliness.

It won't or it would have. Neither will the addition of Lemi-Shine. I would like to see a single documented case that can be proven, that the use of this combination alone caused a rupture of a brass case. If this is so dangerous and prevalent, examples would be everywhere, not just exist in one claim, by one person on an Internet gun forum. You know, I would like to add one thing to this... I have talked to several range officers and retired LEO instructors about this... they seem to be in agreement with you Bill. They have told me that they have actually shot thousands of loaded rounds where the actual brass casing was cracked (over the years)... basically on the rim,down the case, or up at the neck. If this is the case, even if there is some small breakdown of the case due to Dezinctification, that alone should not cause a case to "blow up" I maybe wrong (and the other folks I have talked to in person)..... and am not saying that the folks on here do not know what they are saying but, after talking to literally hundreds of reloaders, LEO's, and range officers who have used stainless wet tumbling for well over 5 years... they have never, ever, once had a issue. They have also stated what I laid out above. It would seem that if this was even a small issue, that 1 of these guys would have had an issue over the 5 years. Lets just say that I talked to 100 folks and each of them shoot 5,000 reloads per year... thats a million reloaded rounds every 2 years that they shoot collectively, and 2.5 million rounds over the last 5 years.... you would have to assume that of the 2.5 million rounds they have all shot, if this was really an issue there would have been one bang or issue right? I'm in 100% agreement with you on this subject. Look, cases rupture all the time in reloading for various reasons. Over worked, work hardened brass, high pressure overloads, incorrect headspace, just to name a few. I've had factory loaded .454 Casull cases split on the first firing. The ones that didn't were usually only good for a single reload. That cartridge operates at 63,000 PSI. In a revolver no less. As I mentioned before, I've reloaded .338-378 Weatherby Magnum brass at similar pressures after many Stainless Steel, Dawn, Lemi-Shine tumbles for hours on end, all with no problems what so ever. In addition to that I worked in the machine tool trades my entire life. At one facility we manufactured high pressure brass valves and fittings that were used in gas Nitrous Oxide anesthetic systems for the dental industry. All of these operations were closely monitored by the Food And Drug Administration. We wet tumbled these parts extensively in Stainless Steel Pin media to remove small burrs, and to give the parts a good, uniform appearance. Many of these valves are subjected to all but constant pressure at 2,500 PSI and above continuously. Again, no problems at all. I'm not saying this "dezincification" doesn't take place. One only has to Google it and you'll find several articles on the subject. What I am saying is that it isn't enough of an issue to be of any significant worry to reloaders, and many manufacturers. If it were, there would have been incidents popping up all over on reloading forums everywhere. There aren't.

It won't or it would have. Neither will the addition of Lemi-Shine. I would like to see a single documented case that can be proven, that the use of this combination alone caused a rupture of a brass case. If this is so dangerous and prevalent, examples would be everywhere, not just exist in one claim, by one person on an Internet gun forum.

And I'd be charged with what, not listening to your advice?.......Dude.

Dude? I rest my case.

Cases fail for a multitude of reasons. How do you know for certain the failure was due to "dezincification", and not a long list of other reasons? Really? Really what? I asked you a question. If you cannot respond to it why should I value any of your comments? Stainless Steel Media is not that "new". I've been using it for over 2 years now, on literally thousands of brass cases. As I mentioned, many of these are for Weatherby Magnum calibers that operate at over 60,000+ PSI. Some have been full length resized after cleaning in Stainless Steel Media over 10 hours, and reloaded over 8 times. That amounts to over 80 hours of tumbling total. All of which took place in hot water, detergent, and Lemi-Shine. I've never experienced a single problem. Many others report the same results. And there are many others who have been using it for a lot longer than I have. It has been used commercially to clean brass parts for years. High pressure, cast brass valve bodies, and numerous other parts have been liquid cleaned with Stainless Steel Media pins for decades. You are creating issues that don't exist. Unless you can respond with proven fact, instead of silly emoticons, I see zero reason to place any value on your comments.

Cases fail for a multitude of reasons. How do you know for certain the failure was due to "dezincification", and not a long list of other reasons?

I agree with all of this "brass weakening" through dezincification, or whatever they tag it with. I Stainless Steel pin wet tumble in HOT WATER with Lemi-Shine, and Dawn. I've tumbled .338-378 Weatherby brass for over 12 hours on several occasions. I've never had any issues with failed cases. You can research yourself to death with a lot of this type of stuff. Stainless Steel Media has been around long enough, that if there were such issues, they would have surfaced by now. They haven't. You can use Stainless Steel Media with confidence. Please keep us informed on the longevity of your Harbor Freight Mixer. I've been looking into that exact same model. I was concerned about long term running hours on the motor. I like my brass really clean, and Stainless Steel Media allows me to achieve it easily. I've read on Accurate Reloading where guys have tumbled a lot of expensive African big bore brass, and no one has experienced dezincification, or brass failures of any kind. Many of these are very high pressure cartridges. Big Weatherby cartridges in particular. The only problem with Ultrasonic Cleaning is with Aluminum. It can and does cause cavitation damage if Aluminum is allowed to be exposed to Ultrasonic Cleaning for too long of a period of time. Much like what can happen to an outboard motor Aluminum propeller. I ran a test on a polished Aluminum block some time ago, and the results showed an almost sand blasted effect on polished Aluminum. I found no such problems with brass.

I've never seen a pistol barrel that was shot out.....Ever.

I bought the 590 A-1 with that in mind. Right now my work schedule is pretty tight. But I'll be retiring in a couple of years, and I'll have a lot of time to get into some 3-Gun shooting.

I've had a Mossberg 500 "Combo Gun" for some time now, and recently picked up a 590 A-1 Mil-Spec. I thought it would be helpful to do a comparision of the features / price / and value of both guns because while both may appear similar, there are a few differences worth pointing out. First off I'd like to point out that isn't rust you're seeing in the pics. It is just very poor color saturation from my crappy Sony Cybershot camera. The "striped" appearance of the Parkerizing on the 590 are oil absorption marks that transferred from the case I had it in. PRICE The Mossberg 500 "Combo-Gun", as it is referred to by several of the big box stores that sell it today, runs right around the $249.00 to $299.00 range. The 590 A-1 Mil-Spec runs, (as you see it configured), around $460.00 to $480.00. About $160.00 to $180.00 more. FEATURES The 500 "Combo" comes with a standard anodized receiver and 2 gloss blued barrels. The barrel you see mounted to the weapon is the 18" cylinder bore with a standard brass bead front sight that is threaded into the barrel. The gun also comes with a 28" Vented Rib standard field barrel that has a fixed Modified Choke. It does not accept screw in choke tubes. Mossberg does sell aftermarket barrels for this gun that do have them. It has the standard synthetic field stock and forend. The gun has a standard 5 + 1 capacity. Both barrels have 3" chambers. The 590 A-1 Mil-Spec has a parkerized finish on all exposed parts. Barrel, receiver, and bolt, as well as the magazine tube are all Parkerized. The barrel is a 20" cylinder bore with a single brass bead threaded front sight. The magazine tube hold 8 rounds for a 8 + 1 capacity. It also has a 3" chamber. Other features of the 590 A-1 Mil-Spec Model are a bayonet lug that is threaded to accept a front sling swivel that comes with the gun, a heavy walled barrel, a metal safety button and trigger group, (the safety switch and trigger group on the 500 are plastic). The 590 A-1 Mil-Spec also comes in an all but limitless amount of stock configurations. Standard, collapsible, as well as Speed Feed and others are offered. There is also the 590 SPX Model that comes complete with the Ontario Knife M-9 Bayonet. Another feature of the 590 A-1 Mil-Spec Models are the dual barrel / magazine tube attachment points. As the photographs show, the 500 Models are attached by a single ring at the end of the magazine tube. The 590 A-1 Mil-Spec has a dual attachment system with two rings that are heavily brazed to the barrel. The barrel also attaches a bit differently on the 590. The magazine cap is completely removed, then the barrel removed. This is much like a Remington 870 in that regard. On the 500 the magazine cap does not completely come off. The actions on both guns, while not totally identical, are very similar. The manual states that barrels and internal parts will not interchange between the 500 / 535 / 590 Models. I haven't tested this, so I'll take Mossbergs word on it. OVERALL VIEW Both of these guns exhibit excellent value and quality for the price. Both are made in the USA. If a person is looking for the most for his money, the 500 "Combo" is pretty hard to beat. It offers very good value for the dollar. Especially considering you get 2 barrels with the package. I've had around 1,500 rounds through mine total so far, and have not had a single issue or problem. These loads were a combination of low brass target loads, heavy 3" Magnums, as well as Buckshot and rifled slugs. It ate them all with zero issues. The 590 Mil-Spec I just received this past Friday, so I have not been able to evaluate it's performance. Hopefully I'll get out to the range next week to run it through it's paces. If a shooter is looking for a well built, solid home self defense weapon, the 590 A-1 Mil-Spec would be a pretty difficult gun to beat. It was the only pump action, combat shotgun tested by the military that met Mil-Spec requirement Mil S-3443 which consisted of 3,000 rounds of Magnum buckshot with the gun being fully operational afterward. The other guns in it's class are more expensive when similarly configured. It appears to be a gun that can hold up to a lot of rugged use. I think it would be a hard gun to beat in the role of a home self defense shotgun. Which is better? At this point having not yet run the 590 A-1 Mil-Spec through it's paces as of yet, I would say based on features and price, the 500 "Combo" is the better buy, while the 590 A-1 Mil-Spec is the better gun. Either way I doubt you could go wrong with either.

Published loading manuals contains tested, SAFE data. You have to be very careful using Internet reloading recipes. Many were cooked up by God knows who, God knows where. Yes, information from the powder companies is reliable, but outside that realm be careful.

"Loaded" 1911, Trophy Match, Range Officer, and a Long Slide. All Springfield, all stock, all run like scalded dogs right out of the box!