mobocracy

I worked for Xerox in the mid-80's and was on a couple of projects that were joint ventures with Fuji Xerox. The guys over there had one fear for their future business: China. It looks like they were right. On a side note, our country seems to be pretty good at ignoring the long term for short term profits. The work we were doing at Xerox PARC was some of the first practical work in what we called Large Area Integration. This technology was the technological basis for modern large LCD displays. At the time, the big business was DRAM for PCs and such. We could not get the interest of ANY US semiconductor equipment manaufacturer. The Japanese were more than happy to help. Take a look around the house and car and see what we gave up 20 years ago. Everything got stolen from PARC! Apple nicked the mouse and the GUI, 3Com got the LAN (at least initially, although I think the founder was a PARC alumni) and Adobe made something out of PostScript..

I've been happy with mine, although I do get some "quantum" effects with bulky powder like Blue Dot when making very fine adjustments (eg, adjusting smaller results in larger charge and vice-versa). I don't understand, though, why Dillon doesn't sell this product themselves. Not to take anything away from Lee Love and Uniquetek, but the concept is pretty obvious and the results are excellent -- the stock nut adjustment works, but it looks pretty stone age next to the micrometer unit. Even if all they did was catalog it from Uniquetek (the way they do Redding dies and other items in their catalog they don't even claim as theirs).

They both cost you for life; one won't complain, though, if you feed it reloads -- the other expects boxed factory loads every time.

Well, there is, but its probably industrial-grade equipment made by and for someplace like Federal... The Giraud is simply outstanding. I would like to see two things improved on it -- a slot cut in the top of the case mouth or a raised hex nut so that you could more precisely hold a length setting when adjusting, and some way to blow/suck the brass cuttings out of the cutter chamber under the power of the motor. I don't like to get the cutting chamber full AND I don't like to stop to empty when on a 500 or 1000 case run. The only other improvement on the Giraud would be making it less expensive at the same quality level and standard of living Doug Giraud maintains and making an automatic case feeder for it. Other than that, its about the most perfect reloading tool I've run across.

Its possible, but a number of cases are the same length -- think of all the .308 derived cases, for example. The guy that runs my indoor range was telling me he had talked to a major commercial reloader who said that the best machine for sorting cases was a group of 50+ Vietnamese women; nothing else was accurate enough. If you could get them oriented rim-down, I'll bet with today's technology you could use a camera/computer setup and actually sort them by headstamp, which would have the added advantage of giving you the flexibility to sort by maker, scan from crimped primer pockets, etc. Maybe when brass is $100/lb.

The casefeed disc is made up of slots as long or longer than the cases. As it spins, cases go into these slots. When it gets to the funnel opening, the heavier mass at the rim end of the case causes the case to drop into the funnel and then into the tube rim-end in. Its really quite effective, I don't think I've had anything but .32 Auto misfeed, and that's maybe a once per year reload.

Is there a source for "flat" Dillon-style bench wrenches in other sizes? Standard wrenches in some of the larger sizes are overly beefy; fine for changing my water pump, but kind of too much for adjusting my crimp die.

I will second this complaint. I haven't done much about it, since I seldom "miss" and have a primer go unused, but I find the priming system on the 650 inferior to what I had on my previous press, the SDB. If I was in charge, I would redesign the 650... ..with an SDB-style priming system and make it a single unit without the seperate punch for swapouts between large and small. ...with an easily removable casefeed for manual casefeeding ...an extra hole in the toolhead and powder moved to station 3 for undersize sizing or other attachments. ...A spent primer cup that catches ALL the primers! But generally I'm very satisfied. The powder measure is rock-solid, I've loaded nearly 1000 .223 over the past month at various times and in smaller quantities and I've had almost zero adjustment required to get back to my powder weight. Does Dillon ever plan for substantial re-design or re-engineering of their presses?

Is anyone in the market for the features of a SDB or 650 or 1050 both not going to find out anything about a Dillon or buy something other than a Dillon? I don't think there's too many people running Hornady LnLs or RCBS just because Dillon's web site looks like it was typed in Notepad by a Foxpro developer. That being said, a new website would be *great*. Feature suggestions: 1) Clickable, zoomable *COLOR* parts diagrams (c'mon, you do design with CAD software, don't you...?) 2) Dillon support forums staffed by a Dillon employee 3) Online catalog you can actually find stuff in.

I bought my 650 in May 2006. My insert slide spring cap (#14 on the diagram) broke and Dillon sent me a case insert slide assembly (spring, cap, and a couple of other parts). I had more wear than I thought I should have had on the case insert slide from the camming pin, but nothing that kept me awake at night. What I was surprised by was the wear at the bottom of the slide and how the case insert slide spring seemed kind of shot, too. I lubed the platform where the slide rides to minimize wear there, but not on the camming surface or pin since I wasn't seeing enough wear to worry me. It could just be its kind of a wear-out type of a part, although my load count (~7000 rounds) seems too low for replacement. When I switch back to pistol from .223 I'll pull it out and get an idea of what 2000 rounds looks like on the bottom where it seemed to wear worst.

Does anyone else find the "right" (as in properly locates the cases) setting for the station 2 locater results in locater springs that work loose or a "fit" that seems kind of sloppy? I don't remember having this problem with .32 ACP, but its driving me nuts with .223. My spring worked loose this morning, and I ultimately gave the locater "arm" a more aggressive bend and added a small washer to the adjustment hex screw (helps keep it from getting so sloppy). It'd be nice to have the locater assemby have some kind of capture for the spring, too, while we're at it. I don't remember having this problem with other calibers, although they're generally really large cases (.44, .41, 10mm, .45 ACP, .45 Colt).

Here's how I've set myself up: 1) Dillon carbide size die in one toolhead 2) Dillon Powder, seat and crimp die in a second toolhead 3) Giraud power trimmer Lube cases (I've thus only used One Shot and it's been great) and then size. Once sized, I run them through the Giraud. I've done this with both fired and new cases, and the new cases have more variation than I would have expected in length and and how much chamfer & bevel they take -- which is fine, because when I'm done they're uniform. Once they've gone through the Giraud, I load them back in the hopper and switch to the toolhead with no size die and actually load ammo. I have to hold the bullets (Hornady 55gr XTPs) until they're about halfway into the seat die, but I haven't gotten any crushed shoulders. I'll bet the Giraud process helps. I haven't gone totally nuts yet with mass quantities of any load yet since I haven't got the rifle totally setup for shooting or even really settled on what I want to shoot with it. So far I've loaded 26gr Win 748 and Win SR primers under the 55gr XTPs and it seems to shoot pretty accurately, or at least as accurately as I can with the iron sights. It's a 16" barrel M4-type, so I'm not expecting a fraction of an MOA accuracy, either. I'll get to work it out tomorrow when I sight in my scope.

That's what I went with. It works like a dream and is built to high-volume industrial durability standards. But you do have to save some pennies! I think a toolhead mounted setup in a 650/1050 would make shorter work of the process since it could take advantage of the casefeed, resulting in less hand work. It'd be nice to see the Giraud cutting system adapted to a toolhead mount and using the cutter motor to drive a chip removal system so you could do away with the vacuum required in a toolhead setup , but its hard to see the Giraud mounted on a toolhead due to its size.

I posted my original message before my trimmer arrived. I bought a Giraud (which works fantastic), and while trimmed & chamfered cases allow the bullet to "nest" a little better, I still don't think they're going to stay put the way pistol bullets would on belled pistol cases. We'll see for sure tonight, I'm finally going to load up some tonight.

Yeah, that's my point I guess - they seat fine, despite the fact that the bullets will just barely kind-of-sort-of "sit" on the case mouth and need to be pretty much held on the case until the seat die mouth covers them. Its the fact that they have to be pretty much held onto during press operation that's the problem. That will cut my throughput immensely, which I guess isn't a bad thing for my first few hundred rifle rounds, but would be generally unacceptable for any significant long-term volume.

I'm just pulling my stuff together to load .223, my first rifle round, on my 650. I was setting up the dies with some fired LC brass and some new Winchester brass. I setup the sizing die first (Dillon Carbide) and noticed that it doesn't do much if anything to expand the case mouth for seating flat base bullets (Hornady 55gr V-Max). On the brand-new Winchester brass (which is already apparently perfectly sized, sizing effort is near zero) and the resized LC stuff, I could get a bullet to seat if I held it on the case mouth while pulling the handle, but there's no way these bullets would rest on the mouth of the case like they do on belled pistol cases. They seem to seat OK without any distortion of or loss of headspace, scraped jacketing or anything else -- and this is without any trimming/chamfering (that device is supposed to be home when I get home...) Is this basically normal? I'm assuming it is, and if so I can see where boattails or other beveled edge bullets would be a little nicer in progressive operation. I bought the V-Maxes simply because they were the cheapest option given the relative scarcity of cheap .224 bullets.

Nono, I really want to know what all the options and techniques are before I buy a bunch of equipment and discover I'm on the wrong technique or bought the wrong equipment for the right technique... I have a 650 I use for a bunch of pistol calibers, but this is my first rifle caliber. From what I've read thusfar, either the Dillon or the Giraud trimmer sounds like the best, get-it-done-with-minimal-BS option available. I like the Dillon option because I can set it up and use the rest of the casefeed automation to get it done with very, very minimal handwork. The Giraud sounds like its regarded as the BMW/Lexus of its type, since its well built and does it all, including chamfering. But then you're into case-at-a-time handwork.

Is the sizer in your step 4 different from the sizer in your step 1? If not, why does the case mouth need to be expanded a second time -- wouldn't it get expanded properly in step 1? Or does the trimmer/size step 3 do something to the case mouth?

An interesting option, thanks for the suggestion. If you get 3 firings before trimming (and I have no idea what the "real" number is for midrange loads in an AR), it would only add like $12 or so to the cost of a case of reloads and save a ton of time and the investment in trimming equipment. Although I did see that name pop up recently in AR15.com with a number of complaints about turnaround.

For .223? I just picked up my first AR-15 today and the guy at the reloading side of the fun shop was giving me the lowdown on reloading .223 and said I would need to trim my brass about ever 3 firings. I was pretty surprised to see Brian's FAQ statement that you can by and large get away without trimming. Is this true for .223, at least with the condition of starting with new brass and firing it in the same gun? None of the trimming options seem entirely appealing, so I'd kind of like it to be true. The Dillon trimmer seems the most automagic, but there's the vacuum noise problem and some appear to complain of a chamfering and deburring being required. Also, does it have to be used with the trim/size die or can it be used with a standard size die? The other trimmers people get behind (Giraud and Gracey) are both expensive and appear to be a lot more "hand" work than the Dillon which can size at the same time as well as taking advantage of the case feeder. I'm not looking for super-ultra-magic 600 yard tack driving performance, either, although small groups do give you a warm feeling..

I came looking to possibly start this thread, but since I found it I'll just add to it. Federal 150 primers became hard to come by last fall from my local dealer who said there was a nationwide shortage -- nobody had any. I found some at Powder Valley and bought 5000 and ate the hazmat fee. I had been buying 1000 at a time (I shoot maybe 200-300 rounds a week and usually loaded 1k of a given caliber at a time, so I usually have a stock of ammo around). Was at the reloading place picking up some media and looking at an AR and asked about primers -- I was told 1000 max, "because he liked me, other guys aren't getting any at all" (have bought 2 complete Dillons there in the last 3 years, plus a lot of primers, powder and bullets...). The shop is in the Twin Cities area where we have a big ATK (Federal's parent company) presence and the reloading guy says some plant workers are customers, and they say it's 24/7 + manditory overtime for them to fill DOD contracts and its using up almost all of their production capacity. I believe it -- Federal primers seem to be available nowhere, are expensive when you find them and .223 stuff seems to be REALLY hard to come by. I haven't started loading for it yet, but I suspect that finding bulk 55gr FMJs and primers will be tricky. I have about 3k 150s, 1k Win LPs and I hope that the supply loosens soon. I'll eat up those primers by the end of May pretty easily.

"Spare the rod, spoil the load." Or something like that.

Excellent, Merlin, I can't for the life of me remember who sang that, probably because I was in college during that period! Bachman-Turner Overweight -- "You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet". A classic rock radio staple, which sadly often seems to overshadow the superior hit "Takin' Care of Business".

I look at the 650 as a time saver -- if I dedicate two evenings, I can knock out 2000 rounds pretty easily and then I don't have to load that caliber again for maybe 6 months (I like to shoot about 7 different calibers). The SDB would make this quantity a 4 nite process, and then there's powder throw checking, etc which might make it 5 nites. The 650 overkill for my volume, but I like to make a good supply of ammo at once so I'm not doing it again two weeks later. Then the changovers would be a big timesink. The downside to owning a bunch of SDBs is storage. Keeping bullets, cases, primers, powders the press, the tumbler, the media seperator BY ITSELF is a hassle. Presses are not tidy little items to store (disassembly? See toolhead changes...) and I mostly contain my reloading to a 10 x 20 area I have to store other crap in, too.

I'm glad you got one that worked! Mine was so poorly assembled the battery door was glued shut from the, shall we say, "enthusiastic" assembly procedures. It works OK with Winchester LPs primers, but flips Federal 150s like pancakes at a Shriner's breakfast. The plastic molding they use is so sloppy that I'd have to ream the small pistol primer hole out to even attempt to use it. I *might* get the Dillon unit one of these days, but the Crapford Arsenal one has kind of spooked me on automagic primer loading. And I love the lock rings, too.