Ara

My comment about the "intent" of Production being an entry level division stems from comments leaders have made, mostly in writing, probably in Front Sight. If you look at the official Single Stack rules, at the very beginning you will find the official "purpose" of the SS division. Interestingly, we don't have an official purpose for any other division including Production, so now we have MPD. (Multiple personality disorder). The question isn't so much "what's wrong with Production" as much as "what can we do to attract more shooters into our organization"? I believe it was Andy Hollar that said Production was designed to attract new shooters in hopes of increasing membership. So they can take the gun off the shelf...etc...well, it didn't really do that. What I've seen is lots of cross overs like myself. So maybe its time to relook at Production with a fresh perspective not from a "this is not fair, that is not fair" but for the sake of the overall sport.

Being old to IPSC but new to Production, it seems to me that alot of these rules are a moot point as long as we don't have a trigger weight restriction. The problem I see is that we are all so quick to mandate "double-action" only triggers but the CZ and others are only double action for the first shot. So one can make the first shot light and all the other shots even lighter since there's no restrictions. How is this "Production" or even within any known spirit of the division. (whatever THAT is). How is this a "beginner's division"? I'm all for trigger jobs but its kinda funny how we're ok with the ultimate gaming with a one lb trigger but god forbid we put plastic plug in a Glock or bevel an old mag well. In escence, these double action pistols are disguised as a single action trigger after the first shot. Even the IPSC rule covers only the first shot.

I chew on bubble gum....depending on where I shoot.

Col. Jeff Cooper passed away yesterday. There is a small announcement on USPSA.org. Whether you agreed with him or not, he is the reason we are all on this forum today so we owe him, and his supporting wife, alot. Ara

Erik, You are right on the money with you're points. But the real problem lies with our lack of true mission statement; a ratified mission statement agreed upon by its members. In other words, what IS the "spirit" of our sport and Production in particular and where does it state it? If it doesn't, we will never agree on anything because we have no basis, just our opinions on what it SHOULD be. This debate runs parallel to the debate of what our sport should be. Is it a "game", is it "bubblegum", is it "defensive", etc. No one really knows now because we have MPD. (Multiple Personality Disorder). Most will say "its just a game". Then why not allow modifications? Ironically, one of Col. Cooper's stated purposes of IPSC was to..."determine the best equipment and technique...of the combat pistol". IF we were to honor that, then we should continue that research especially in Production since this is a whole new area of technology that has come full circle to new and improved guns. We should harness the research as we have in the past because it intentionaly or unintentionaly becomes a testing ground. As an example, my department issued G35's a few years ago. The hardline cowboy in charge of firearms, who is a diehard 1911 man, determined by god, that you cannot put a plug on the mag well on the issued guns because you might need to "rip" the mag out (even tho they normally drop free and you can pull from the sides). After four years of carrying it, and now competing with a Glock, I've learned that the plug is really handy. Far more important to reliably reload than be able to get my thumb behind the mag. So I ditched the issued gun and now carry the G22 with a plug. This is all a result of learning from competing with a Glock. But rules (a ruling actually) say I can't plug in production, even if its flat on the bottom, which mine is. This is an example of something that makes sense in "combat" if you choose to use it. Interestingly, this cowboy, who used to be addamently against plastic guns, short barrel AR's and electronic sights, now allows them, even RE-issuing our SWAT with them. This is a direct result from IPSC allowing the dot, which became the testing ground, which was then adapted by the military, which was then a "must have" by law enforcement. For the record, I am in favor of certain restrictions such as trigger weight. I shoot a 3# trigger but I'd give it up if I had to. Other than trimmed down Heinie sights, everything else in my Production gun is stock Glock. I could care less if a guy wants Bomar sights or a plug. Or if a guy wants to bevel the inside of his old generation Beretta mag well (the new ones COME beveled). After all, what is the standard? If you were to carry a gun exposed, either in law enforcement or not, who cares if you have a mag funnel? Now if you were carrying concealed, maybe it would stick out ("print") but does that make it bad? Besides, we (USPSA) do not have a concealed requirement. For that matter, USPSA shooters "stand in the kitchen with hands naturally at sides" carrying probably 5 mags and a gun. See where I'm going? I think it's possible to allow modifications within limitations and still be clear. But first we have to determine what we are and where we are going. That is our guide, without it we are lost. Put me on the list of names for the committee. Ara

Eric, did you say "bubblegum"? I'll have to dissagree with you...kinda. The stages you mentioned are not the epitomy of bubblegum. Texas Stars and windmills are, but we've killed that topic already. While I agree with your idea, the solution is not just to increase the distance, per se. There are many real-life situations that have required very close shots, in and out of law enforcement. The problem is, as Ron Avery has said, we are operating on different guidleines...or at least the interpretation of such. I'll elaborate. Bruce Gary is right. The requirements of a classifier are different. In fact, when you look at it they are very strict and narrow for the reasons he stated. The "mission statement" is very specific and different than anything we may have for real matches. Yet for the "real world" of IPSC, anything goes...like the Texas Star and windmill (one or two targets spinning freely in the open). Classifiers need to be as consistant as possible because there are other variables that make it inherently unfair such as terrain like the thick sand we have to run in at a range in Denver. However, within the "real world", there is an obvious interpretation of what we are or should be. We need to narrow that interpretation down a little thru a true mission statement that is ratified thru the members and principles that are enforced and not "omittted" from our rulebook. (sorry if I offended anyone there). Newer members have only what they currently see as a basis of their experience and us old timers have the "old days". If we "allow" certain things to go on, the newer shooters merely pass on what some of us consider bubblegum and it perpetuates. Col. Cooper recently told Ron and I that his purpose for founding IPSC was to "discover, by means of open, unrestricted, diversified, realistic competition, the best weapons, equipment and technique to fulfill the lifesaving mission of the combat pistol". Talk about a mission statement! And how does it differ from what we do today? So...it really depends on what glasses you are looking thru and until we are all wearing the same prescriptions, we will always disagree. For example, Bruce Gary prefers snow screen walls for safety reasons. I prefer solid walls for a more a more realistic stage. There's no arguing that the solid walls offer a different view (NO view) of targets and probably a more difficult challenge. Are they both acceptable? Yes. Eric, after 18 years of 1911 I switched to Production. One of the reasons was along the line of what you said, or maybe didn't realize you said. I think you crave a little more challenge. The beauty of production is that since everyone is scored minor, it puts a little more emphasis on accuracy, regardless of where the targets are set. My recommendation is that you go out and kick everyone's butt regardless of what challenge they present you. At the same time, do what you can locally and politically to affect change. Mr. (No) Bubblegum

Thanks to everyone for the support. As of today we have 111 shooters from 16 states and 3 from Canada. We can handle more if anyone is still interested. Shooting starts Sat morning and ends around noon on Sunday. Squad list is available at ecouspsa.com.

We have over 100 shooters but still have slots left! Come join the fun!

He's shooting Production at my match, the Cheyenne Shootout/Wyo State Championship.

Denver has some restrictions regarding "assault weapons" but its not a real problem. As always, carry any match documentation with you and put the guns and gear out of view should you get stopped for speeding in wide open spaces of 75 MPH. Co is also a "shall issue" state for permits. An hour and a half north, "Wyoming is what America was" where you can even carry a gun in the open, in addition to being a "shall issue" state with merely a hunter's safety card.

I have extended the standard rate deadline to June 15, which is what it was supposed to be anyway. Stages and shooter list will be posted soon. Ara Match Director

Gunny, Like Ron said, if the match is full, we will be done by 12 on Sunday after shooting four stages that day. Wherever you are driving from, it will be worth it, I promise you. I'm really excited about the stages. So far we have 7 GM's and 11 M's, 11 states, 1 Canada and even dignataries such as Dave Thomas, Bruce Gary, Dave Sevigney and many others. Pretty darn good for an innaugeral match. Bayoupirate, I got you covered but no jambalaya for lunch. Ron, Look out for Jack Patton, an attorney with an open gun from the big city of Cheyenne. And for those that don't know, Ron Avery/Practical Shooting Academy, Inc. will be hosting a one-day peak performance seminar on Thurs, July 6, for a fee of only $125 with all proceeds going back to the match for prize money.

Mike, good to hear from you. I don't get all those cable channels so I haven't kept up on ya. If I can get nothing but shooting shows instead of MTV, I'll get it. Apparently, what they say about great minds is true. I think you and I are kinda on the same track. I forgive you for "starting" BIPSC but I have to admit as I did on an earlier post, that I'm a recovering BIPSCOHOLIC. Or at least an enabler. I think dialogue on this issue is healthy for our sport. I just wish it happened before we lost some to IDPA. In that effort, I think we can create matches that cater to the entire spectrum of shooters and philosophies. That's what I'm doing with the Cheyenne Shootout. Originally, I had started designing modern IPSC stages and then decided to come up with something entirely "new". I've spent alot of time designing fresh new stages even minutes ago getting permission from my Chief to use a police car. (No, you don't get to shoot it). I've come up with very elaborateand visual stages that are scenario based from beginning to end and "sensible". The final product is stages with a high fun factor and challenge without getting crazy. I'm looking forward to posting the stages on-line soon even tho the diagrams won't do them justice. Mike, I know you can relate to a "list". On my list is a goal to help support my sport that has helped shape my life since 1988. If a way to do that is by creating a whole new venue, I'm there. I grew up in So Cal in the 60's and 70's and we used to vacation in a place called Big Bear Lake. When I was old enough to drive, I even drove to the range there...alone...and shot my guns. Last month, Ron and I had the fortune of going back there. So there we were, thirty years later, standing at the birthplace of the very sport we talk. We couldn't help but reflect on the original intent of the founding fathers. We know the times have changed and no one is advocating shooting 6 rd stages but certainly we can accomplish more...within the existing guidelines. Mike, I think you should consider coming up to the match especially if you are still in Boulder. (Do they still allow guns there?). It's definitely a match for the eyes..or camera. Ara

While attending a major match this weekend, there was a rumor going round with the out-of-town shooters that the match was full. We still have slots left. Stages are just about complete and will be posted for those that are curious or who chew bubble-gum.

Eric, I was browsing along the topics and suddenly I come across mountian biking which was a pleasant surprise considering the tone of recent threads. Is there such thing as a bubble gum bike.....? Its nice to know how many IPSC shooters, or others, seriously ride. My ride's an Epic with tons of upgrades: Mavic 717 wheels with XT discs/shifters, Answer Pro-tapers carbon bars, Thompson stem and seat post, Stan's tubeless, Fox Float 100, King head set, XT rear, Shimano 959 pedals. My rubber is Roll-X Race but they stopped making it. These things hooked up on everything from Moab to So Cal. My son also rides an EPIC. My bike was worth over 3k, more than an STI, but well worth it. I ride more than I shoot. Ron got his first bike last year, a real decent hardtail and man what a story for his first ride...in Fruita, no less. There we were rolling down a technical section..talking about how bubblegum IPSC had gotten...."Ron?....Ron?...where'd ya go?"...A giant hematoma on his arm later, he decides he's going to wheelie up a drop off...without momentum. He cursed me good on that one as I laughed. This was just before Nationals and after a two year break from surgery on the same arm. It had taken him months to decide what bike to buy and I finally had to tell him to just shut up and ride. Matt's right tho with all his advice. No matter what you get tho, its almost always outdated in a year, especially with Specialized. I'm done upgrading for now but its either divorce or a new bike.....and I haven't decided. Eric, if you make my match bring your bike and we'll ride the Rockies. I was going to try to incorporate a mountain bike into a stage but no way to do it safely. Ara

Wow, 2alpha, I hope you weren't suggesting Ron and I are two old guys "turning tactical" because we're "unable to compete". I think our record would say otherwise. I have never said I want USPSA to "go tactical". Nor have I said my match would be. What some of us are saying is we need to adhere to the founding principles. My match IS NOT mirroring IDPA. I don't shoot IDPA because I just don't have the time nor do I claim to know their rules. I have never said that IPSC should be "training" either. IPSC does provide, in generel, a high value of training for me but its not the intent. (I will argue that one with Hackathorne all day). Yes, Texas Stars and windmills do test you...and "train you" in some respects but so do clay pigeons, balloons, and bullseye targets. I can shoot at anything and call it "practical". Thats not the point. We just need to adhere to the principles. We can't ignore that the Principles do apparently exist. In fact, it says the Principles are "established to define the nature of pratical marksmanship. They are accepted by all members of IPSC as conditions of membership". Some want to define words like "realistic...sensible...hypothetical..practical rationale" as the Star and windmill. To me that's stretching it and it seems like when I say that, I'm somehow labeled "tactical" or something else with a negative conotation. I am not talking about taking the fun out. In fact, the contrary. I believe we can appeal to all types of shooters..and do a better job of it. Is this not one of the reasons IDPA even exists? Are they right? When someone walks up to my stages, I want them to really feel like they are in another world. The world of that scenario. When they are done shooting, I want them to say, "holy smoke!" because they just experienced something they never have before. In many ways, my match is a test of these ideas. I'm apparently not alone. So far 11 states and Canada are represented with the whole range of demographics including lots of GM"s and M's. For an innaugeral match, this says something. Go easy my friends...

Brian, thanks for the support. The best way for you to help is to come to the match and be part of the effort. Ron teases me alot and says "I started this whole thing". In a way he's right. When we first began discussing this, I pointed out to him that the Principles of IPSC were deleted from the rule book in 2001. I have since found out the they are still within the IPSC Constitution, but not in the USPSA handbook. Brian, as you said, Principle #6 is my favorite and clearly written. Even the words..."must be realistic" were bolded. It further uses my favorite word: "sensible". This Principle has not been enforced and most newer members probably don't even know the Principles exist. To put this in better perspective, a while back I came up with six concepts that I will use in my match and share with others. These are my ideas on how we can all keep with the original intent of the sport and still make everyone happy within the USPSA rules: 1. Explained themes...this is something that the RO will read before each stage. It sets up the scenario and its relavance...and adds to the fun. 2. No carnival targets such as the Texas Star or windmills. 3. Adhering to Principle #6 for stage designs. Each stage will have a scenario behind it, not just a portion of it. By portion, I mean the perverbeal stage with a few walls, hallways and scattered targets. Fun, but not a real scenario. (At the risk of offending some, this is ok for a local match but not for a big match where people pay lots of money). Each stage will have a defensive theme, not an arbitrary one. 4. No memory stages, ie., huge shooting area with targets clustered too close together and props that confuse your positioning. 5. Procedures that make the shooter use better tactics. I really do hate the word "tactics" but what I mean is multi-tasking without getting bubblegum. 6. Better use of fault lines and "stay-out-boxes" (SOB's). Another acronym I coined. These are "areas" within a shooting area you have to STAY OUT of while shooting, such as directly in front of a window or door, etc. Target placement is still key here. You can still allow hosing, just not from this box. So this is my take on some practical (no pun intended) solutions. Whether you believe there's a problem or not, I think incorporating these ideas will go a long way. Ara

I'm the one that coined the word BIPSC but I've been holding off posting because some of you are ruthless and it was never my intent to offend anyone with the word. Yes, Ron and I talk much about the direction of the sport but it is out of concern after decades of participation. We have been faithful to the sport that has made us what we are today. For the record, I am a policeman but not hardcore martial artist. I've been shooting IPSC since 1988 and always been involved locally and regionaly. My position is only that we need to bring back a little reality to our sport, without getting carried away. After much thought about my upcomming match, the Cheyenne Shootout, I realized that over the years, even I had become BIPSC in many ways and started over with all my stage designs. I hope that I can help start a new trend in stage design and maybe a new and better direction for our sport. Lurper said it well. Thank you.

What happens to all the shooters who use a long Glock for Production?

Yes we do.

With all the discussion about "bubblegum" I thought I would take the time to explain what this match is all about. What will make this match different is my approach to stage designs. I will be putting in a huge amount of effort into stage designs and injecting a little more reality. It is not a "tactical" match, whatever that is. Easier to explain is what it won't be...bubblegum. I won't be using spinning targets or Texas Stars or memory stages. I will have very elaborate but sensible stages with real themes. Response has been great! 11 states and Canada represented already with 5 GM's and 6 M's. There are still slots available and its the weekend before the Handgunner in Colorado. Cheyenne is located just north of Denver off two interstates and has its own airport. Hope to see everyone there!