IVC
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Posts posted by IVC
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Back to the original question - can you as an RO just pick a guy at random and try to enforce the weight rule? Appendix C2 specifies what is required for weighing of bullets and guns, so unless all the infrastructure is in place you cannot. Even if you bring your own scale and you believe it's obvious, you can't do it that way. Also, most of these rulings are deferred to the RM, not the RO at the stage.
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2 hours ago, RJH said:
Sorry but that is pure speculation. I see many people shoot PCC as a secondary division, but I have literally never seen anyone shoot revolver in conjunction with any other gun at a USPSA match. Some of our locals allow people to shoot in 2 divisions and I have seen pretty much every combo possible EXCEPT revolver and anything else.
Misunderstanding - what I mean is that there would be more shooters if Revolver match was attached to another match and one could shoot it as a second match, not by switching gear on each stage. PCC is actually naturally suited to be a secondary division within single match since it doesn't need holster. Much like shooting Production/CO or Limited/Open with the same brand of gun.
And you're correct, it's speculation because we only have older data. However, it's still an educated guess based on my local club (100+ shooters in each match) where every single shooter who is classified in Revolver also shoots another division as the primary division.
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On 2/12/2020 at 8:35 AM, MikeBurgess said:
I think Revo is for most people a secondary division, something they will shoot if a good opportunity presents itself, SS is similar in this respect (look at SS nationals participation vs regular club level participation) I think the problem with participation in the last 2 nationals was shooters had to choose to shoot Revo over either limited or SS,...
This right here ^^^
Revolver is a great secondary division and many more would shoot it if there was an easy way to shoot it in addition to their primary division. Also, revolvers are a really good practice for trigger control, as well as a set of generic skills that are fun to possess.
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21 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:
When I extend my arm my wrist doesn't rotate inwards. It stays vertical.
How is canting the gun "ergonomic"?
The standard shooting position is with elbows slightly rotated to the outside, which cants the hands and creates canceling torque on the gun when shooting two-handed. This cancelling torque comes from the shoulders and is what keeps the gun in straight up-down position during recoil.
If your hand stays vertical, your elbows must be pointed straight down - this is what bullseye shooters do, but they rotate the body to make it ergonomic. If you try it in front of your body while facing the target is't not the stable position.
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There are two schools of thought - those who cant and those who don't.
The pros for canting is that the arm and wrist are in their natural positions, allowing for better recoil control. The con is that the recoil is diagonal so it changes the follow up shots when shooting fast, which might or might not be a concern based on how fast your follow ups are and how much you've practiced.
The pros for keeping it vertical is that it matches your two handed grip and that the recoil supposedly goes straight up, which is not really the case because it requires a support hand for the recoil to go up, so you still end up with off-center recoil. The con is that it's not the ergonomic position when you're using just one hand.
To compare the two, consider that the bullseye shooters use straight gun, but they also rotate body completely and don't care about the recoil. Action shooters tend to experiment and figure out which way gives them better control for transitions and follow up shots. Remember though that even if you keep it straight up, the recoil will push sideways because you don't have your support hand to direct it straight upwards.
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On 2/9/2020 at 11:33 AM, IHAVEGAS said:
On the internet we bitch about everything, particularly when it is too cold to get outside in a lot of places, but that is often not real world.
So we need a new thread - "what would it take for you to shoot any division in an area where it gets too cold to get outside and shoot?" There must be "geographical haters" too (?)
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On 2/8/2020 at 6:27 PM, RJH said:
Wasn't revolver an original division after the split from run what you brung? Wouldn't that make it specifically a division brought about for participation trophies, just like every division that isn't open?
Isn't the whole PCC hate a consequence of Open shooters no longer taking the top overall spots? Talking about participation trophies...
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On 2/8/2020 at 9:49 AM, anonymouscuban said:
One thing I did notice is that my grip on the draw was slop when doing this drill but not prior when I was doing the Blake drill.
Patience - drawing with sloppy grip is like shooting steel before you can see the sights. It appears fast(er) and it is faster on occasion when you get lucky, but it's neither the correct speed to perform at, nor does it ingrain the correct cues. For your draw, getting the good grip in the holster is the cue you're looking for. If you miss it, you have to slow down and correct it...
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On 2/1/2020 at 3:30 PM, anonymouscuban said:
My best time with alphas across the board was 2.54 sec.
You need to look at your consistent time, not your best time. It's the same as if you're looking at your draw or reload time. Concentrate on your best time and you are not only missing the most important information from the training session, but you're getting completely wrong impression of your performance.
Separately, you shouldn't be in D class. Time to get those classifiers going much like you are working on your field course skills. D class is for beginners...
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On 1/31/2020 at 2:57 PM, ima45dv8 said:
Honestly, that's never been a consideration when I was setting up a stage that would include a prone element.
Equipment choice like that is on the shooter.
On 1/31/2020 at 4:56 PM, Sarge said:Agreed. I like to use prone and shoot prone on occasion
And it shouldn't be a consideration as it is indeed on the shooter. I was just pointing out one of the potential considerations if the shooter is not used to going prone...
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1 hour ago, gerritm said:
But 1 handed PCC is not safe. And penalizing the PCC guys with no alternative to 1 handed is not right. Should always be a safe way to shoot the stage for all.
57 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:I'm a hard disagree on this point,
unfortunately the rules are written from that point of view.
Shooting 1 handed is a skill that is learned, whether it's pistol or rifle. PCC actually has less recoil than a handgun, so it's just a matter of holding the gun and not of any recoil control or muzzle flip control. There is nothing inherently unsafe about shooting PCC one handed, especially since it is braced against the shoulder and still has two points of support (instead of three), compared to gun which goes from two to one when shot one-handed.
USPSA has the rule and they don't have to justify it. If they do, as is the case here, it's just to provide *their* reasoning. The reasoning doesn't make it so, though. In short, it can't be done in a USPSA match, but whether it's safe is wide open for debate.
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2 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:
Seriously, a prone position in a stage isn't all that punitive if it's the last shooting position.
Can mess up with race holsters, though. I had it twist the muzzle support on DAA Race Master even though it was loaded with Loctite.
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1 hour ago, egd5 said:
We aren't shooting against pistol shooters so I don't give a hoot what you design for a stage as long as it is safe and actually doable with a rifle.
The "doable with a rifle" part is what puts constraints on stage design whether you give a hoot about shooting against pistol shooters or not.
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1 hour ago, gerritm said:
The way the MD got around it was to say that he was not requiring PCC shooters to shoot 1 handed. Shoot it 1 handed by your choice or just don't do it and take the penalties. 3 or 4 targets on each side.
He didn't get around it at all. He violated the rules.
As others pointed out, there must be a proper alternative to one-handed PCC shooting. Whether some agree or not, it's how the rules are currently written.
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36 minutes ago, Assault Manager said:
Yes, many of this ideas are being used now and many are not - if that matters. What has the highest probably for success interreges me the most. Personally, I am not opposed to something just because it is not new anymore than it is the way it has been done for year. I don't feel biases, angst, hyperbole help anyone anymore than running off on tangents.
Probably what most on this forum agree - performance drives technique. However, precisely because the performance measures are objective, they necessarily cannot be rooted in "biases, angst and hyperbole."
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32 minutes ago, Assault Manager said:
Fist-Fire method is Not, repeat not, about point shooting...
Can you elaborate a bit?
I did a quick search and it was mostly about demonstrations, but then selling the training material - nothing wrong with that, just can't tell what it is at the core. I also didn't want to spend too much time searching for details...
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Haven't heard about this particular flavor until now, but it looks like point shooting.
If this is indeed a variant of point shooting, it's been debated quite a bit - shooting off of index is based on the training to have perfect presentation, which in turn means that the sights would appear lined up in front of the eyes anyways and with no extra time requirement. So, not using sights is a handicap with no benefit. The trick is in what "using" means - on close shots, it means getting to the acceptable sight picture (and no more), on fast splits and shooting at high speed it means calling shots and knowing when the grip/stance/timing was off and the shot went off target, on far targets it means aligning them carefully and not disturbing them during trigger pull (another version of calling shots), and on bullseye shooting it means hard front sight focus and no-movement trigger press.
Most of the point shooting advocates I've seen tend not to recognize that point shooting is an unnecessary subset of shooting with sights. It's mostly used at high speed and close distances. However, at high speed and close distances the acceptable sight picture is not only quite loose, but it's used to call the shot, not to aim. Not noticing the sights and not using the information they provide is just a waste of information (and not speed) that becomes progressively more problematic as the distances or difficulties increase.
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I have many S&W PC revolvers and they *used to* be really good. A 5" 627 PC I got years ago is by far the best factory trigger I've ever owned. Compare to the 627 PC V-Comp I got about two years back that was gritty and crappy and took a trip to TK Custom to make it amazing. My two 929's, that are PC by default, were also way less than acceptable without the extra work and were anything but "competition ready." My guess is that anything recent from PC is likely going to be just a good foundation, but the work will have to be done by someone else.
It's a pity that S&W PC is in the toilet and a victim of cost cutting...
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RO shouldn't commit to any cadence or in any other way indicate his intent because any discrepancy from what he says to the shooter and what he does would become a contentious issue that could warrant a reshoot in case the RO didn't do what he said he would. It would come under the "RO interference," much like too long or too short a delay from "are you ready?" to the beep.
Reminds me of discussing the (non existent in USPSA) "Do you understand the course of fire?" question that is sometimes asked. What if the shooter says "no?" Should the RO now explain it and who's at fault if the explanation is not complete, e.g., the RO doesn't mention some or some other target?
So, in general, the RO shouldn't introduce any variables into the process and the only communication should be "by the book." The only exception that I can think of is when there is a potential safety issue and the RO would like to know which way the competitor plans to go during, e.g., a run uprange. This is simply to stay out of the way and is not binding on either the competitor or the RO.
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Yes, you need to reload. Fast reloads are required to make M/GM.
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3 hours ago, PatJones said:
We only keep it around for classifiers. Do you really think the high hit factors would change if El Presidente was scored Comstock?
The question of "when is a reload the mandatory reload per WSB" would remain even with Comstock...
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4 hours ago, Matt1 said:
I bet people are lining up to squad with you...
You should see me at parties...
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So, I shot a SCSA match today and had a blast with this new rule - I was shooting for fun two revolvers, ISR and OSR. Both are S&W 929, but one has a slide ride on top. I had the Revo rig on at all times and all I had to do is holster the correct one at "Make Ready." At the end, when they said "holster," I said "not so fast, I'm bagging it."
Worked like a charm even if I had to name-drop the head of the NROI to override the written rule (joking, nobody made an issue except me being a smart@$$ and bringing it up). Good times...
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54 minutes ago, bret said:
yet he did reload after T1 -T4
Did not.
He must reload after engaging each with two rounds. He engaged T4 with one, so any reload at that time is like a Revo reloading after 6 - you're free to do it, but it's NOT "the" mandatory reload per WSB. Read the WSB as a story. It's not "anchored" around the reload, it specifies the order and number of shots. You cannot claim that "the mandatory reload" is the one reload you do after 7 rounds because that's not how the story goes. There is no "taking a Mike" to advance the story. You have to FIRST shoot each target with two rounds. Until that is satisfied, any extra shots/hits are just that - extra shots/hits with procedurals. THEN you have to reload. The condition for the mandatory reload is that you "fire two shots on each target." Once you get to that point, the story tells you that you HAVE TO RELOAD. If you don't, you incur procedurals per 10.2.4.
Notice that you don't get to decide where the mandatory reload happens by shooting more/less rounds and "taking a Mike" or so. It's spelled out for you in the WSB - count the shots at each target and when you get to "two on each" you now have to reload. If you added some shots, well, that's the procedurals because the story says you must shoot two and only two. However, the mandatory reload is not connected at all to the number of shots or anything other than "two rounds on each target." It's the trigger for the reload.
So, you fire seven shots and reload, you haven't arrived at the point of mandatory reload. You are still in the part of the story that says "engage each target with two rounds each." Until you put the second round on T4, you're just violating the first chapter of the story. As soon as you do shoot the second round on T4, now you move to the middle chapter of the story - the mandatory reload. Don't do it, and you'll be hit with 10.2.4 at that time. Again, the mandatory reload is NOT after 7/9/any number of shots, but after "engaging each target with two rounds."
Gun non-compliant at club matches
in USPSA/IPSC Rules
Posted · Edited by IVC
Space shuttle also managed to make it to the space and back many a time without blowing up...