IVC
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6 hours ago, bret said:
The mandatory reload is after engaging T1 -T4, T4 was engaged, then a reload occurred.
WSB requires a reload after each of T1-T4 has been engaged with two rounds. There is nothing preventing a shooter from reloading after each shot, or after each target. It's just that the WSB specifies a "mandatory reload" (as opposed to any other reload) after each target has been engaged with two rounds.
So, if you fire 7 rounds and reload, the reload is not the "mandatory reload" required by WSB. It's similar to what a 6-shot revolver would have to do - an intermediate, arbitrary reload. Until each target is engaged with exactly two rounds, you get procedurals for the number of shots/hits (you cannot fire more or less than 2 per target until the reload). Whether you shoot at the targets or do any additional intermediary reloads, you keep collecting procedurals. When you finally hit the last target with two rounds, you now have to reload per WSB and then AGAIN engage all the targets with two shots each. If you don't engage some targets after the reload, you get procedurals for failure to shoot at the target too.
Rule 10.2.4 is clear that you collect procedurals per-shot for failure to do the reload. There is nothing that says that the incorrect extra shots before the reload somehow count against procedurals for failure to shoot at the target after you (finally) reload. You still have to fire the specified number of shots and engage each target (with at least one) AFTER the reload, even if you shot at them before. All you get to do is to keep the hits you might have collected when you also collected procedurals, but that can be a double-edged sword if you end up with too many on a target.
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5 hours ago, bret said:
Can't have extra shots when only 16 shots were fired in a 16 round cof.
Yes, my bad, I just noticed I typed "shot" when I meant "hit." My post doesn't make sense with "shot." I corrected the post.
The point is that when aiming at, e.g., T1, one can hit another target and create an extra hit even if everything else is in order. That's all.
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6 minutes ago, bret said:
for an extra shot penalty to be assessed, an extra shot would have to be fired, 16 shots fired in a 16 shot stage can't be an extra shot fired.
Extra shot != extra hit.
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On 1/22/2020 at 5:44 AM, Schutzenmeister said:
Pettifoggery ...
Not quite...
We learned a few things. First, the range commands don't always have to match the rules. If there is a tribal knowledge or habit, it supersedes the rule book. The best part is that it doesn't even have to be a level 1 match, it works at any level because Troy said so. Second, when the rule book says "must," it can be open to interpretation if other rules somewhat/sorta/kinda fit. A "must holster" means "should holster, unless you change the command."
Can't wait to have someone trying to rip a new one to an RO who doesn't follow the rule book. We can just point back to this thread for the template on how to make up rules...
/sarcasm
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13 hours ago, bret said:
how could it be an extra hit when only 16 shots were fired, on a 16 round stage?
A creative miss can create an extra
shothit somewhere else.EDIT: Didn't notice I actually wrote "shot" when I meant "hit." Clearly, the sentence doesn't make any sense with "shot..."
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This is tough to admit, but I hope it help others...
Today I was annoyed that the first round off of magazine wouldn't go into battery. Every single time, the initial round would be a FTF. I tried locking back the slide, ensuring I'm not easing it down, different magazines and every time the round would get stuck halfway into the chamber. I would pull the magazine out, pull the slide back, let the round fall into the chamber, let the slide go, insert magazine and start shooting with no further problems. Then, I had another quick burst. Frustrating.
Since I recently started roll-sizing and I always use Hundo to gauge rounds (and flip them into trays), I was pretty sure it wasn't the out of spec ammo. I also remember this happening at the last match and going on for about a week or two, so I was getting a bit extra frustrated. Then, suddenly, I noticed that the firing pin was protruding out and it was the firing pin that would block the rim of the round from sliding up and chambering properly. It suddenly dawned on me that it all adds up - two weeks since this thread, a firing pin sticking out, quick burst, problems chambering initial round, bingo! It looks like I had an equivalent of an open bolt full auto gun that didn't fire on the initial chambering simply by thousands of an inch, and would fire when the hammer fell because it was just sufficient nudge to ignite the primer.
I immediately took out the firing pin and, sure enough, there were some metal shavings in there that were interfering with the firing pin. No idea how it got in there - the firing pin channel is not only narrow, but it's occupied by the firing pin. I quickly cleaned it up and all my problems went away. I believe this will also stop the bursts, but we'll see.
Don't know how I didn't notice it or figure it out sooner, so flame away...
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I think i can attribute my problem to the RF 100. I've noticed that it would get stuck at times and that the primer that is supposed to sink into the tube is vibrating sort of sideways, blocking the rest of the "traffic." Then, it would suddenly sink and I'm not at all sure it would go the way it's supposed to go. So, I went back to primer tubes and manual process and in the past 6-700 rounds not a single problem.
Turns out that I couldn't leave RF 100 to full the tube by itself, so there wasn't much time saved with stragglers requiring another cycle and having to tweak the speed knob. Then, it would get stuck from time to time. Instead, I can fill a bunch of tubes and then I not only don't have to stop to watch the RF 100 dance show, but I know that all the primers are correctly oriented and I haven't seen a problem since. The delay the cleanup of a single round without the primer would cause is in itself longer than it takes me to fill a few tubes. It also helps that Winchester primers are oriented up instead of Federals that are sideways, so a single flip and no shaking does the trick.
I'll wait for the new DAA primer collator to see how it works. Short of that, I'm back to manual tube filling.
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55 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:
With so few shooters all you can do is look at the overall. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking you could beat the guys above you if you were in their divisions. Sure you'd probably finish a little higher, but the only way to know where you'd be is shoot those divisions. Revolver is vary different from everything else.
Agreed. Also, I don't know a single Revolver shooter who is exclusively shooting Revolver (there are probably some, but I don't know them). In fact, most revolver shooters around here shoot it as a fun secondary division from time to time and shoot other divisions regularly, so everyone is well aware of their standing and skill in race divisions.
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Still, I wonder which other commands can have language substitutions under the "no harm no foul" doctrine...
How about "Shooter" instead of "Are you," or "Safe" instead of "Clear?"
I'm clearly joking, but you get the idea...
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7 hours ago, motosapiens said:
I know what you will hear from Troy.
You were right :-). I'm only surprised that he said you can substitute language in the command...
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Here is the official answer from Troy (with my question below):
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The proper way to case or bag a handgun at the end of a COF is to simply use the proper range commands, and when ICHDH is issued, you may substitute "bag" or simply say "holster". The rules allow for carrying a gun either in a holster or in a bag or case.
Uncasing is similar, in that if a competitor comes to the line with a bagged or cased gun, the range command is simply "Make Ready". They are then free to handle their gun as needed.
No separate command is needed in either case.
Troy
—
Troy McManus
Director, National Range Officers Institute
On January 21, 2020, 10:53 AM PST noreply@uspsa.org wrote:
-- You received this message via the online contact form. --
Hi Troy,
There was a spirited debate about the use of flags in PCC, and another side issue popped up with respect to 8.3.7.3 - while the rule allows PCCs to be cased at that time, there is no similar exemption for handguns. It appears that the only way to case a handgun at that time is to first holster, then ask the RO to supervise the casing, all prior to declaring the range clear. Short of that, the shooter must go to the safety area and bag the handgun there.
Question 1: What is the proper way (if any) to case a handgun at the end of COF?
Similarly, some Open shooters are so afraid of scratches that they show up as a shooter with the cased handgun. Since there is no clear guidance on uncasing the handgun at such time, it appears that the RO must first issue "Make Ready" (to ensure nobody is in front and the range is clear), then issue a separate command/supervise the uncasing of the handgun.
Question 2: What is the proper way (order of commands and reasoning) for uncasing a handgun when a shooter shows up with a cased handgun?
Thanks for you time!
====================================================
I'm not sure where the "...you may substitute 'bag'..." comes from since 8.3.7.3 says you "...must holster...," but this is good enough for me. It's also the most logical way to handle it, so I expect the rules will be cleaned up in the next edition to replace "PCC" with "gun" in 8.3.7.3.
At least the part for uncasing is clear and consistent with the rules as they are written - issue "Make Ready" as if the gun was in the holster and handling at that time is permitted by the rules, so uncasing is automatically permitted too. All you need to know is that there is a gun in the case so that you can initiate the start of COF.
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3 hours ago, motosapiens said:
I'm not too worried. I know what you will hear from Troy. I'm pretty sure I have given him the command to bag his pistol before. I know I have done so for Carl and Jodi.
Probably, but let's hear it anyways.
I remember the first time an Open shooter (M or GM, can't remember) showed up at the line with a gun in the bag, I wasn't even certified at the time, and I got confused watching his empty holster and waiting for the gun to somehow appear, while he was waiting for me to give him "Make Ready." He was a very nice guy and we chuckled about it, but I still remember how silly I felt immediately afterwards. Still, giving a guy without a gun a "Make Ready" when you don't even know what's in the bag was a bit strange...
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4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:
I don't think we really need to have everything spelled out exactly, especially for such a common and longstanding process.
I would normally agree but cannot for two reasons: (1) 8.3.7.3 does explicitly spell out casing for PCC and only for PCC; and (2) the command ICHDH uses "must" for holstering.
Best to keep this conversation on hold for a day until I can hear back from Troy and can start a new thread.
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Well, the Western States Championship (Level 2) that's coming up has 19 signed up in Revolver and I know that at least one GM is on the staff, so I expect him to shoot on the staff day. Since this is at my "home range," I also know quite a few of the guys signed up for Revolver - they often shoot other divisions at local matches and I don't recall ever all of us shooting Revolver on the same day.
There is interest and there is place for Revolver. These types of dedicated L2 matches seem to be just the ticket...
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55 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:
Why not start a thread on that before this one gets cluttered with another topic?
2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:we've been doing this for years. if the shooter wants to bag the gun, I say 'if clear, hammer down and bag'. This is not unusual on windy dusty days.
frequently the RM has a bagged gun for calibration instead of wearing one on his hip all day.
I have contacted Troy and will start a new thread when I get the response.
The problem with bagging at the end of COF is that it both makes absolute sense AND is not covered or directly allowed by the rules. That's what I hope to get a definitive answer on. I will post the e-mail when I hear back. (And, I will make sure it's another thread so it can be searched and referenced directly.)
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26 minutes ago, adamge said:
5% probably isn't that big and you can still learn a lot and get the full experience and benefits of shooting matches.
Exactly. Not to mention that the "major premium" requires you to shoot the major well, not merely to shoot it. Shooting well major might or might not be the case with the new shooters because of the extra recoil...
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7 minutes ago, nasty618 said:
Well that's the thing, isn't it? Does winning a division with 2 people in it really mean anything? I mean... it's a competition, not a practice day where one shoots against himself trying to push to improve the times and learn new skills, right? And a competition, by definition, is a test of skill and ability; a contest among rivals. So wouldn't it be more meaningful to place 5th in a division that had 15-20 people, especially with a decent class presence? Both in terms of gauging current level of skill and mapping the path for improvement?
Winning a division in Revolver (when not enough competitors) is similar to winning a high class in other divisions - it would be silly to celebrate or find it meaningful by itself.
You look at your standings and performance relative to the closest division, you look at your hits and your times, you look at how you moved and where you had trouble. So, you can still be 5th when combined with Production shooters. There is a Practiscore app that will let you combine divisions so you see how it all went. It's all about what you strive for and what you're looking to get out of the competition.
And, if you lose sleep because you can't "win" against production shooters, join the Open guys who cry about PCC in combined.
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1 hour ago, RJH said:
I have been shooting uspsa for 15 or so years, including myself there have about 15 revolver shooters that i have seen in all that time. VERY few people shoot revolver any time, so if you enjoy shooting by yourself or with maybe one other person revolver might be for you.
That's 15 more than what the area match attendance would suggest
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1 hour ago, Hoops said:
I sent an email(s) to Troy himself and asked the question of flagging. His response that I got today. You can see my question to Troy and his answer in each email.
Great - thank you for getting the clarification.
It didn't even occur to me that the wording of 5.2.1.4 actually means:
- ...(must be used at all times) and (be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve.)
and not
- ...must be used (at all times and be visible externally) (whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve.)
My argument was solely based on 8.3.7.3 and the requirement to use a flag in order to complete the COF and get to the clear range. I'm actually glad not only that the issue is clarified, but that the correct (and somewhat obvious) meaning is the same as in SCSA - must be flagged at all times, whether cased or not. It's just the flag that can be hidden (for obvious reasons) when the gun is in a case.
So, it's pretty much one set of simple rules across the board. That's the good news. Now if we could only get to the proper way to handle a pistol shooter who wants to bag the gun instead of holstering at ICHDH... (completely different topic, I know, but it was raised in the thread.)
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21 hours ago, RJH said:
Area 1 had 5 revo shooters, area 2 none, area 3 none, area 4 had 4, and then i quit looking. Revolver sucks in USPSA and I like revolvers and am even classified, cause I used to have head trauma. But if some one wants to waste their money on a revolver rig they should go for it, heck they might even relocate to a revolver hotbed and have make it 5 or even 6 whole shooters in an area
Area matches are not a good representation of what's going on - many (most?) revolver shooters shoot other divisions too and will shoot their primary division at the area matches. Compare to the Nationals - the latest locap had 31 Revolver to 146 Single Stack shooters, which is about 1/5. Well short of the attendance at hicap events, but not nearly as bleak as the area matches. Even level 1 matches will have more than area matches as people shoot Revolver from time to time. In fact, area matches are arguably the worst way to gauge interest in Revolver.
So, no, there aren't just 5-6 shooters per area, there are many more. The ones who shoot Revolver as a secondary and fun division are even more prevalent. They just don't shoot it at majors as much.
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No problem, just understand that it's still your responsibility to know the rules and to use the correct range commands. There is no exemption for uncertified ROs to deviate from the rules or commands.
The "commands" part is usually the problem and it's a great disservice to the shooters when they are not correct. In our RO seminar we were warned against "three S-es" - shooter/slide/safe (no "shooter ready," no "slide, hammer, holster," no "range is safe.") It's especially important at the end, when a shooter can keep shooting after "if you're finished, unload and show clear," but not after "if clear, hammer down holster." Using incorrect commands makes it very tricky if someone notices a standing steel and fires at it after pulling out the magazine, just as he was about to show clear.
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6 hours ago, Diver123 said:
http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/uspsa/USPSA122619.php
Here is the link to a multi brief about a magnet being used in carry optics. Its equipment. So if you have a mag pouch in front of your hips that you use while shooting pcc and do not remove that for when you shoot any division that doesn't allow mag carriers in front of your hips, its bump to open period. Call it whatever you want, towel hanger, ear muff holder, what ever goofy name you want to try, but its welcome to open. Will anyone say anything at your club match? I dont know. They should, following all the rules at any level is important so that no one thinks something is legal goes to a tier 2 and gets there day ruined by being bumped to open or worse SNS
Thanks for the link - I have updated my post in accordance with this brief. Always learning fine details...
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I shot my first few matches in Limited minor because that's what I had at the time that was suitable for USPSA. The least of my problem was whether it was major or minor. I still remember the first time the buzzer went off and the tunnel vision that followed. Shooting major would have changed absolutely nothing.
Also, while you indeed lose points on Charlies, you also have less recoil which can help while you're working on your technique. It's not just the simple math of trading points for time, especially when you're just starting. Remember, the 5-10% improvement is there only after you can control the .40 correctly at speed, not before. It's also quite a small margin even in B class (15% wide), let alone in D (40%) and C (20%). Finally, almost all of your initial match improvement will come from movement and engaging targets sooner, with the extra points being but a rounding error in your new and improved scores.
cm 13-05 reload issue
in USPSA/IPSC Rules
Posted
You don't "take a Mike," you have to reload after you have engaged each target with exactly two rounds. You can reload to your heart's content before the mandatory reload, those don't count for anything. Once you have to make the mandatory reload, i.e., after you have engaged each target with two shots (not after you fired 8), then every shot will incur a procedural if you fail to reload. Similarly, until you have engaged each target with two rounds, you don't have to reload, but anything in excess of two on each target is a procedural. Then, you can get extra procedurals for extra hits, if any.