IVC
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Posts posted by IVC
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2 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:
However, in answer to your question … I don't believe I'd get terribly wrapped around the axel over it given the current wordings in the rules. And yes - I have seen (on more than one occasion) a shooter request to bag his HG rather than holster it at the end of a CoF. I have never made an issue of it, nor have I heard of an issue being made of it. I cannot envision why PCC should be any different in this respect.
The current rules allow PCCs to be cased, but they also require a flag at that time (8.3.7.3). On the other hand, handguns technically cannot be cased - they must be holstered first, then require a separate command from the RO to allow the competitor to bag the handgun from the holster, which is sort of a mess.
It's most likely that both 5.2.4.1 and 8.3.7.3 will be updated. The former to require a flag at all times (avoids confusion and there is no need to fiddle with unflagged PCCs anyways), and the latter to allow bagging of all guns, including handguns, at ICHDH (which is what people already do, as you pointed out).
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16 hours ago, bret said:
wrong
Only if we are talking about different things - if you have a PCC in a case, you do NOT need the flag, but we are talking about having a PCC in the hand, as in you have finished shooting and are given the ICHDF command, or as in carrying it around with the muzzle pointed up.
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16 hours ago, bret said:
5.2.1.4 A chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device must be used at all times and be visible externally whenever the firearm is not in a case or sleeve. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.
If the PCC is in case or a sleeve a chamber flag is NOT required.The relevant rule here is 8.3.7.3, not 5.2.1.4 - without a flag you can't clear the range and without clear range you can't get to transporting PCC and accompanying rules.
So, yes, flag is not required in the case, but you can't case it without a flag once you have it in your hands outside the safety area. You can't finish the COF without a flag and you can't have it in your hands without a flag after the COF. Even if you found a way to end up with an unflagged PCC in your hands, it would be a violation that would require an RO to take you to the safety area.
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14 hours ago, Diver123 said:
The problem is the rules as to where your magazine carriers are allowed on your belt vary by division. So if you are shooting production but use a mag carrier in front of your hip for pcc you are now not in compliance with the equipment rules when you shoot your pistol again.
Normally, if you don't use any pouches in non-compliant location
you should be fine- while appendix E3 specifies location of all gear and technically even an empty magazine pouch wouldn't be allowed in the front of the hip bones,one can argue that the unused pouch is not really a magazine pouch, it's a towel holder or something. I'm not sure if there are NROI rulings on this subject, butI would be surprised to learn that it would be an issue to have unused gear in non-compliant locations.Someone who knows the details might chime in (?)This is quite different from, e.g., a Production shooter running out of magazines on the belt and pulling one from the front pocket (rule 5.2.4), where this single violation will bump him to Open. If the non-compliant location is used during a COF, there is no gray area.
EDIT: Below is a link to the NROI brief that EXPLICITLY prohibits even unused pouches in non-compliant location. It's a no-go and IS NOT ALLOWED at any level match. I have crossed out parts that are incorrect speculation.
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19 minutes ago, bret said:
Not having a chamber flag is not a DQ
Correct, but it requires immediate attention by the RO to rectify it. Much like being "required" doesn't mean it's automatically a DQ, "not being a DQ" doesn't mean it is allowed.
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18 minutes ago, bret said:
That is actually a much better way IMO because a lot of people when carrying a PCC especially muzzle down sweep themselves and others and shorter shooters carrying it muzzle up sometimes sweep taller shooters if they aren't careful.
Nothing wrong with bagging on the spot, just put the flag in, then case it. It takes a second to insert the flag and the rules require it.
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17 minutes ago, bret said:
have seen many shooters where their buddy has a friend bring a case to where the shooter is finishing the stage, after they finished shooting and after iCHD, they bagged it, RO called range clear.
Rules don't allow this.
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Revolver division is fine as it is right now. Arguably the biggest problem is that there usually isn't enough competition locally, so people choose different divisions.
Another problem is that many USPSA guys simply can't shoot a revolver. Reminds me of cops who don't want to shoot USPSA because they don't want to be beaten by little girls who are better shooters than them, so they start saying that USPSA doesn't make any sense because it's not tactical enough. This enables them to look down on the USPSA shooters, even though they can't compete. The same concept as semi-auto shooters looking down on revolver in this thread - they can't shoot it, but they sure know how to keep their noses up so they never have to put money where their mouths are. Probably the same crowd that is all upset that PCC guys are taking all the top overall spots.
It's a gun. You shoot a course of fire. The transitions are the same, the movement is the same, the draw is the same, tactics is the same (based on the available number of rounds), splits are barely slower and it comes down to slow reloads. However, a 2 - 2.5 second reload is mostly absorbed by the movement. It's just a disadvantage, much like minor or capacity or no magwell are disadvantages.
Revolver is also great as a secondary division since all but trigger pull and reloading can be trained for all divisions at the same time.
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1 hour ago, bret said:
Do you have him hammer down and bag it or stand there waiting for for him to use a chamber flag he doesn't have?
He must have it, much like a competitor must have a holster. So, yes, waiting for someone to provide a flag.
This is quite different from an exception that losing a holster during COF would generate, where the RO would have to clear the range and would have to either make the competitor bag the gun before retreating to rectify the gear problem, or escort the competitor to the safety area. I am not even sure that these types of cases are directly covered by the rules, except that the RO has the responsibility for keeping the range safe, so there is some latitude in what an RO can do in an unexpected situation.
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2 hours ago, driver8M3 said:
I thought the reason we force them to always use a flag is that they're allowed to case/uncase (outside of a safety area) without RO supervision.
Since it's not a DQ event, they can technically uncase at the berm without the flag and even walk around like that. That is, until an RO sees them and escorts them to the safety area to rectify the condition. Then, they can keep on doing it except at the end of COF where the RO must force the issue.
My guess is that it would fall under unsportsmanlike conduct in 10.6 if a person kept violating the flag rule intentionally.
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1 hour ago, bret said:
guy brings a PCC up to the line, is given the Make ready command, he uncases his PCC facing downrange, no flag, makes ready, shoots the stage, at if clear hammer down flag, has the case available to put the PCC in the case after hammer down (still does not have a flag) what is the correct thing to do?
The RO cannot clear the range unless the flag is inserted. Rule 8.3.7.3 uses the word "must" and doesn't have an exception to allow skipping this step. Even the sentence that provides for casing at the end of COF starts with "Flagged carbine" - the carbine must be flagged in order to comply with the ICHDF command.
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On 1/16/2020 at 5:34 AM, RJH said:
Well. there are the rules and then there is what happens. I would ask your match director, they might consider it fine. If they don't, bagging your pistol between stages will be the easiest. And I would probably skip the 2 holstered handgun stuff
On 1/16/2020 at 9:41 AM, RJH said:We don't even care about sweeping 180s, long as no one gets shot. And long as you cover the sights on pistol while you are dryfiring the stage you are good to go, we don't allow sighting devices, we are strict on that rule
I though your second post was sarcastic, but based on your initial post I'm no longer sure...
No, the rules are NOT optional at L1 matches. ALL rules apply at ALL times. Just because there are some exemptions for L1 matches, that doesn't mean those rules do not apply, quite the opposite - the rules apply and they specifically allow certain limited deviations at L1 matches. For example, rules 1.1.5 mandates "freestyle" but it contains "except as specified below," where rule 1.1.5.1 now creates a narrow exemption for L1 matches.
A level 1 match cannot use/invent/implement ANY rule that is not covered in the rule book. This means that if a competitor shows up at the match, he can go to the safety area with magazines on the belt whether the local crowd likes it or not. He can flip-and-catch the last round whether the RO (or "RO") thinks it's unsafe or not. He can insert empty magazines in the gun in the safety area and he can pull the trigger with the loaded magazine in the gun after "Make Ready" as long as he doesn't fire a round.
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On 1/16/2020 at 9:30 AM, -JCN- said:
When they say “hammer and holster,” I can skip holster and just “hammer and bag it” correct?
Technically, it's a two step process. First, you must comply with 8.3.7.3 which requires you to holster (the word "must"). The rule only allows carbines to be cased at this time, but not handguns. Then, you technically have to ask the RO to let you case your gun (issue a command) since that is the only exception under 10.5.1 that would allow you to handle your gun once holstered (and, if he has already issued the "Range is Clear" command, he should not allow you to bag, he should send you to the safety area).
I would expect this to change in the future rule updates and explicitly allow bagging of any gun at "if clear cylinder/hammer closed/down flag/holster." At this time, I see it as a sort of gray area where the "must holster" part of 8.3.7.3 is skipped and the handgun is bagged instead.
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On 1/16/2020 at 8:28 AM, -JCN- said:
Does everyone agree that the simplest solution is that I use a chamber flag for the PCC and when shooting handgun, I bring my revolver up in a zippered bag to the RO to hand me to “make ready?”
Either that, or just go to the safety area, bag your PCC and unbag/holster your revolver. That will be a bit less confusion if the RO is not certified.
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On 1/16/2020 at 5:10 AM, -JCN- said:
Could I have TWO holstered handguns on at the same time?
While you indeed cannot have two guns at any time (DQ rule 10.5.7), you can indeed have two holsters on your belt.
However, this would put you at a big disadvantage at a classifier match since at least one of those holsters would be in an awkward position. Depending on the division you shoot, you might be limited in where each holster can be on the belt, making it even worse. At least it works if you shoot PCC and have a belt with a holster - you don't use it for PCC and it can be positioned correctly for the other division. This is completely acceptable, provided you never have both during a COF.
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When in doubt, always read the WSB and if it's ambiguous (intentionally or unintentionally), the break goes to the shooter because the shooter can interpret it in any way that is consistent with the language used in the WSB.
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On 1/17/2020 at 8:16 AM, bret said:
If it is cased or in a sleeve, no chamber flag is required, above is the USPSA Rule, not sure why SCSA rules got dragged into this as it was a USPSA Match the OP was talking about.
While in USPSA no chamber flag is required while in a case, the flag is required to comply with ICHDF 8.3.7.3 at the end of the COF. At that time, the competitor must either case/cart the PCC or carry it reasonably vertical while scoring. The PCC is not clear and the range cannot be declared clear until the flag is used. In all of these cases the PCC will be flagged, even though the rules don't require it for cased PCCs. There is no way to get an unflagged PCC into a case at the shooting box at the end of COF.
So, the only way to have an unflagged PCC in a case in USPSA is to have just arrived with it (first stage) and are uncasing it for the first time, or to go to the safe area after COF and intentionally remove the flag (allowed in USPSA, not allowed in SCSA, but not a DQ in either, so if you're a d!@#! you can do it "just for fun," as much as you can keep cocking your hammer in the holster "just for fun" and waste RO's time to escort you to correct the problem). Otherwise, under normal circumstances, all PCCs will be flagged in cases on all but the initial stage.
Importantly, while you can uncase an unflagged PCC at the berm and be in violation of the flag rule (non-DQ violation if unloaded), you cannot insert (or remove) a flag at the berm since that would be considered "gun handling" and can only be done at the safe table. This would be a DQ under 10.5.1. Playing games with flags is unnecessary and silly - PCC should be flagged at all times much like hammer should be down at all times.
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14 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:
If that occurs, you don’t call the range clear and repeat the command.
Unless it's loaded. Then you also DQ the competitor if he didn't engage the safety.
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Your support hand is (should be) anchored to the grip with the fingers wrapping around the strong hand. If your thumb is slipping, the rest of your hand must be slipping too.
A guess (and just a guess) is that because you're using the finger on the trigger guard you are pulling with that finger to keep the gun from recoiling while not holding it tightly with the rest of the support hand. It should be the opposite - the support hand holds the combo of "pistol and strong hand" the way you would hold a rifle and control is through the pressure on the front of the grip, not by any pulling in downward direction.
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43 minutes ago, nhyrum said:
I know jumping right into the open class is a little like someone who has only swam a few laps in a pool trying to swim the English channel... Probably.
Not really, shooting Open gun is easier than shooting other guns. The barrier is the cost of the gun and having to reload immediately, but you already have the gun and clearly you have the ammo too. Don't worry about it, just figure out how to shoot it well.
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14 hours ago, nhyrum said:
I do know the value of eye pro. I wont let it happen again. sometimes i just get lazy. im not trying to make excuses, im really not. This is my first comped gun(which im sure is obvious) and have really no one close that i can talk to. I havent even been able to shoot in in a match yet.
Not piling on, just want to point out one extremely important point since you mention you haven't shot in a match yet. When you shoot steel, jackets fly. They'll regularly sting you on your arms and legs and occasionally embed in the skin. I had one piece I had to pull out of my cheek, just below the glasses. Probably many more that hit my glasses that I haven't noticed.
That's why you'll get extra push-back in these forums.
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22 hours ago, davsco said:
what magnification scope are you using? just a non-magnified red dot? if so, do you have a magnified scope you could throw on?
Just a red dot (Holosun 510C green; I guess it makes it a "green dot" these days...).
I do have a bunch of scopes I could use, but I don't want to go that route. Yet. The groups were way too big for the dot so there is no doubt that I have to sort out the load first. If I get to the point where I'm getting decent groups, it sounds like a very good idea to throw on a scope and measure the accuracy accurately (say that three times fast). I'll see how I do with the JHP bullets and if it indeed gets close to being good, I'll probably try with the scope.
It's just that I don't want to have to re-zero the dot - I guess it's no big deal and I shouldn't be lazy...
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22 hours ago, Tampa-XD45 said:
Which barrel are you using?
The JP 14" (I believe) - it's the one that has to have the brake pinned and welded to meat OAL. It is NOT the pistol barrel with the shroud, if that's what you're asking.
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Thanks guys - this reminds me that I actually have a decent amount of 124/.355 Montana Gold JHP bullets that I use for 38 Super Comp. I'll go ahead and load a batch of 9mm and test the accuracy.
Since I have to tinker with the load now (must add about half a grain compared to coated), I'll start with a recipe I tested with 130 MG FMJ. As a side issue, is there any noticeable increase in accuracy at some specific muzzle velocity, or should I just go for the consistent PF, e.g., around 130?
Stupid question: multiple holsters at same time
in USPSA/IPSC Rules
Posted
Appendix E3 supports it - it doesn't have any exemption for "unused pouches," it requires "holster, mag pouches and all allied equipment" to be behind the hip bones (technically, whether used or not). I'm not sure I like it, but that's how it's written at the moment. The only way around it is to declare it "not equipment" and see if it flies with the RO...