jm951

I'm going to miss it. It came down to one big match through the balance of this year and Ft. Benning was too tempting to pass up.

Why not both? A strictly "run N gun" could be very tiring, while a "stand N shoot" very boring. From my limited experience in 3 gun, I've found that the thing I like about most the matches, aside from the folks I've met there, is the variety of stages in the COF.

Updated- I just bought an 1100 from a friend at work for $250. He tells me that there haven't been 100 rounds through it and that it's been sitting for quite a while. I think that's true since the gun was bone dry, no wear marks of any kind inside the receiver, on the mag tube, on the gas system, or scratches on the loading gate. The O ring is questionable, but that was no surprise given the age of the gun. I put 50 rounds through it this weekend with no problems. First thing I'm going to deal with- the O ring with Eric's solution. Second, I'm going to take either this gun or the 1148 to the Ft. Benning match. What length mag tube goes with the tactical (22") barrel? 9 round? Suggestions? From what I'm seeing, the 1100 and 1148 have a number of parts that are common, or at least so similar, they could be modified to work. A couple of features of the 1148- and I would like to know what the experts here think- 1) bolt release button on the side of the receiver 2) action is recoil ala Browning A5, no gas stuff to deal with 3) while the latch(?) for the 1100 on the loading gate should fit, I see no need for it as the release button is on the receiver side and shells could be loaded at any time.. It should be functionally similar to a Benelli, just maybe not as fast cycle and lock time. The point I'm headed for is- one gun could be set up for tactical and the other left with the long barrel and magazine for matches where tactical rules aren't an issue. They weigh, feel and mount about the same. From a couple of feet, you couldn't tell the difference as they stand now. What say the experts?

I have the same problem and an instructor told me that if the sights are properly aligned, it's usually caused by a "sympathy" pull of the other fingers on your hand. To verify if that was what I was doing, I tried a 1911 gripping only with the thumb and middle finger on the grip, very noticeable improvement. Now when I practice dry fire, I try to consciously keep the pressure off of my last two fingers. Sounds crazy, but it's helped me.

Sent mine in yesterday!! Count me in

Well, the way I got into 3 gun was through a friend who did spec ops in the Navy. He did warn me that it was like doing crack and the first hit would result in total addiction. He was spot on about that and now we've conspired to gain permission from our respective Social Directors to go west next year for some bigger matches. Since permission has now been secured, there's NO way I'm going to compete in larger matches with a questionable pump. I need to get a shotty soon and start getting it dialed in and set up how I want it. The funds issue is normal for this time of year in my field, the down side is I need the shotty now, not later in the year with a match looming 60 days out. I want to thrash it in a couple local matches first to get time to deal with the inevitable issues. In a way, I'm glad the issue came up now, not 6 months hence with travel arrangements made and entry fees paid. The Remington is looking like the ticket. Saiga isn't quite an infatuation, I just like the idea of a mag fed auto shotty. There are conversions out there for Mossys and 870s to a 10 round drum that look enticing. Thumbing rounds with arthritis in the hands can be taxing, but I'll keep doing it for a couple more years yet.

I was thinking that the Saiga might get reclassed into Open, even though it's not specifically against the rules as written. Even though I like the idea, that's the main concern I have about it. So before I drop coin on a Rem platform, I want to explore all the options from folks who are active in 3gun.

I shoot both for the trigger time, but find that the new rules are generally subject to copious amounts of interpretation at the club matches.

I was looking at pumps originally, but the local matches make no distinction between pump and auto. For that matter, most are not 30cal neutral either, so I get hammered by the mouse guns. The local matches are usually broken down between irons and optics. So, in the interest of getting a bit more competitive at the local level, an auto is in order. I'm planning on doing SMM3G 06 and noticed that the Heavy Metal division does make a seperate class for the pumps and autos. IF I was going back pump, it would be either a Mossy 590 or a Rem 870. My first choice would be a cosmetically impaired 1100 or 1187 and add what is needed to get to near 1100CM status. I was thinking Stoeger because of the Benelli type action, but if no extended mags will fit, then there's no real reason for it. Besides, while I can do machine work, I don't really want to make a comp bolt handle like is on the 1100CM. For the time and materials, it's cheaper to buy one. So, back to the Rem platform. I like the Saiga idea quite a bit and haven't seen anything in the SMM3G rules that would rule it out. If there were any goodies for the 1148, that would be the way to go since I currently have one in EXG condition that is dead reliable. Since I haven't found anything, it may wind up as trading material. There are a couple of gun shows coming up in my area, so that might be another place to look. I've found that Murphy's Law of supply and demand is in operation, "If you don't need it, it's in large supply. If you need it, it's nowhere to be found." I missed a deal on a 1100 for $250 a couple of months back that would have met the need perfectly. Didn't need it at the time, so didn't buy it.

Ok, at the last match, my old Mossy 500 started having extraction problems. It seemed to be heat related but, since the gun is at least 25 years old, very loose, and I want to speed up a bit, an auto is on the new aquisition list. The problem is that it's coming at at bad time when coin is in somewhat short supply, so no Benellis or SX2. My current class is the "heavy metal" group since I'm shooting FN FAL 308, G21 45acp and Moss 500 12ga. Not that I deliberately set it up that way, just that's what was in the gun cabinet when I got hooked into 3 gun. Here are my current lines of thought- The Saiga is very interesting. There is some info out there, but the gun is hard to find. A couple of Q's- does it come with choke tubes, how is the reliability, and what class would it be in? I could get a cosmetically impaired 1100 or 1187 and add the goodies I want. I haven't heard if a Stoeger can take any aftermarket parts, like an extended magazine and what is its long term reliability. Walmart has a cheap line of shotguns- Charles Daly brand. Anybody know anything on these? What about Armsport? Anybody have any of the poop on these guys? I have a Rem 1148, is there anybody out there making stuff for it? I'm open to suggestions here as I have to get this issue put to bed soon so I can practice with whatever I come down on and get back to 3 gunning.

Why not have two uppers with different barrel lengths? Several of the 3gunners in my area do that. They have an 18 for the 100yd stuff common here, and a 20 for the longer range matches.

While there seems to be some concern over using 8rd mags, there are 10rd mags out there for the great old standard 1911. With that in mind, I'd about say that 10rds would be the ticket on the handgun mag capacity. As for caliber, I like the idea of using a production gun that has to make major, with the minimum being 44 or 10mm (major pf). I've come back into competitive shooting just because of the 3gun matches and with my stuff, He Man/Heavy Metal is the way to go without having to drop lots of coin on new toys, as if that would be a bad thing, but my finance minister would disapprove. But I digress, I started shooting 3g using a SA1911 with 10rd mags, 7.62 NATO FN FAL L1A1 with 20rd mags, and a Mossy 500. Thrown in with all the mousegunners and STI and Benellis, I stand a snowball's chance in a stove of winning, let's face it, technology can make a mediocre shooter much more competitive. What I am looking for is to have a good time and shoot what I have well. If I beat some of those guys, then great, that's just gravy. Cheap ammo, relatively low cost guns and a challenging course of fire makes for great fun. I like the idea of no optics for this class, but I can also see the point for those of us who are becoming visually challenged using some form of optics. In that light, why not limit optics to no more than 2x? The downside here is that works against the spirit of the class to run classic battle implements. Someone mentioned doing battle with optics on a rifle, but there is a reason that even with optics, the military still teaches irons and irons are still on most standard issue military guns. Dive into a foxhole or behind hard cover and have your rifle land underneath between you and some rocks or concrete and crunch the optics. In a firefight, it could well happen and you don't want to be without some means of returning aimed fire. But being an older guy with eyes getting weaker, I can understand why some want an option. On shotguns, I can run fairly close to most autos as long as the COF is 6rd friendly in layout negating some of the advantage for those with mag extensions. I like my Mossy, but will definately change to either an 870 a 590 platform to equalize that capacity discrepancy. I don't like the idea of a match supplying the ammo. Just have one KB or malfunction and see where the liability falls. As I see it, I would like to see HM with- Rifle- 308 or larger- major pf 20rd mags Pistol- 44 or larger- major pf 10rd mags Shotgun- 12ga pump only No compensators No speedloaders No optics Iron sights only, ghost rings ok on shotguns Pretty close to the original idea and that's what attracted me to the class in the first place.

How much of the "new" members shoot 3 gun the vast majority of time, like me!

Interesting, it looks like a fast impulse powder like Bullseye will accelerate the bullet suddenly causing it to either not grip the rifling properly or wipe the coating onto the forcing cone. At least that's how it seems to me. A slower powder more gently "pushes" the bullet into the barrel and upsets the base just enough to grip the rifling so it doesn't skid down the barrel and leave lead deposits. I was looking at trying the 200gr in my 21C. Is the 4.3gr of Clays anything like a high pressure load and what type of velocity with that combo?

Any word on how these perfom in a Glock?

We had a couple of vehicles on a stage at one match I shot at. The first 2 BG's were on the other side of the first vehicle and they wanted the shooter to rise and shoot over the car. That wasn't made clear and several of us never got up from behind cover and just shot through the car windows. It raised some eyebrows, but hey, in the real world, I'm not getting up from behind perfectly good cover. Fun stage, I'd like to do another like it sometime.

Does anybody have the skinny on the exact date for the Fayetteville NC, FOP 3 gun match for 2005? Burkett says it was great and I've heard the same from others who went.

I won't make it this year, but next is looking veery interesting. I totally like the idea of trooper class, wimps and whiners need not apply. Sounds like the ultimate shut up and shoot class.

Yup- It was Carlson. I'm sending off the barrel this week to have tubes installed.

I was at a 3 gun match this afternoon and one of the guys there was telling be about someone (Cunningham?) in Nebraska? who is great at installing chokes in about any barrel. Does anybody know who this is and how to get in contact with them? tnx dave

Watch it with the 1911 single stack comments, I started with one, but am moving on. That, if not taken in the spirit intended, could well be interpreted as that arrogant elitism that turns off many new shooters. Let's face it, how many new to the sport are going to be running STI, SVI, or (insert race gun of choice here) as their first guns? Having watched IPSC, IDPA and USPSA for a while before taking the plunge, I've met some pretty intense guys with the very attitude that I've pointed out. If I wasn't thick skinned about that stuff, I'd be very turned off by some folks. My son and I both shot an IDPA club match a while back and even then, this 20yr old kid observed that there were some folks there who were real arrogant jerks and he'd never want to be around them again. Fortunately, we were squadded with a great group who were helpful and fun to be around. Bottom line is, had we been stuck with the jerk squad, my son would never plunk down the $$ to shoot IPSC, IDPA, or USPSA ever again. Rules squabbles aside, treat the new guys like dirt, they won't be back and will leave you to your sandbox. In the business world there is a truism that a satisfied customer tells only 3 of his acquaintances about a good experience, but will tell more than 10 of a bad experience. If you want to expand this sport, keep that detail in mind.

While I can kinda see the guy's point, the rules are clear on this. He could also have excercised more tact in making his point. I make sure mine drop free while I'm at home, but I can see how it might become necessary to ensure that a replacement or borrowed mag will still drop if one of yours gets damaged.

BTW- NASCAR and driving skill are pretty much mutually exclusive ideas. Montoya and Gordon switched cars for a show on SPEED and Gordon couldn't even turn a lap that would make the back of the grid in F1 while Montoya would have been in the middle of the grid for NASCAR, that on his first couple of laps. Back to the shooting discussions-

Just a couple of thoughts here from someone new to IPSC/USPSA/IDPA style shooting, but not shooting competition. I've noticed that even in the MB tapes of the "big" matches, the props aren't that great for a "national" match. You want some good video of an event that someone other than a shooter would take an interest in, improve the props. Not that I care that much personally while actually competing, but my social director/finance minister has commented on how boring and odd it looks. I've shot SASS but it's too much like WWF with guns for my taste. I don't want to have to remember a personna while shooting a match. The shooting was great fun, so I've moved to action shooting in a more modern setting and have taken a strong liking to 3 gun. If you want video, it doesn't have to be done by a camera guy. There are great small remotes and flying wire cameras for those shots that would be extremely dangerous for a person to get. Remember how the video for the last Super Bowl was shot? Having a set range with permanent stuff would be great for nationals, but the devil is in the details of how to pull it off. A suggestion would be to include some form of tower, an enclosed shoot house, and "hogan's alley" as permanent stages. The shoot house should be capable of being done dark and reconfigured for every match. Keep the prize tables. It looks great on camera to see someone walking away with the "big'un". A medal is nice, but IIRC, there is also prize loot for placing in most forms of racing. You want to gun race, why ditch prizes? Keep the production classes. Have classes for other weapons but even in sports car racing, there are classes for bone stock vehicles. IHMSA had a strict production class and it worked well. When the NRA tried to adapt the format, they allowed some mods to "production" guns and the interest in the handgun metallicas shilouttas pretty much evaporated on the east coast. If you want to run a big buck STI, SVI, Kimber, Para, whatever, you should have your own class. Let's face it, even in the world of racing, there are classes. You don't put Micheal Schumacher in an F1 Ferrari up against somebody who runs in A Prod in SCCA just because you can or because Schumacher has a bigger pile behind him. To assert that "if you wanna play, you gotta pay" is the height of arrogance, and I've noticed some in this game are eat up with it. That attitude will turn off the overwhelming vast majority of new shooters, and lead to no growth and eventually the demise of this game. Keep the Production class, that's where a new shooter will begin. Face it, the average shooter wanting to start will likely get a production gun that could be carried in the "real world" as opposed to the latest STI with trick barrel, comps and a holosight. Sure some of you hard apples would try it, but for my money when the crap hits the fan, it's a stock 1911, Glock, SIG or HK that goes bang every time. As that new shooter gets deeper and sees others with the race stuff, they'll naturally want to go faster and will gravitate to the higher classes. That guy's enthusiasm will rub off on others and they will start, beginning the cycle again. I can't say enough about getting kids interested. Daddy likes to shoot and compete, and hey, here's a jr class for kiddo. Get the kid interested and mom will at least approve of the bonding time with Dad. She might even start competing. For an example of this, look at the world of go kart racing. Since the games are supposed to vaguely reproduce some type of tactical situation, there's still no reason there can't be a "one guy against the world" type of scenario as a fun stage. Let out the inner Rambo and have a blast. Not every stage needs to simulate the "real deal". I've been there, and until the poppers and cardboard can shoot back, it ain't even close to the "real deal". A couple of other comments- I like IPSC matches for the round counts and movements. I like IDPA for the "tactical" flavor, but the FDR rules can get frustrating as to me, being able to solve a tactical problem on the fly should make me a better shooter since part of the game is solving the problems while shooting. I prefer 3 gun because that means nothing is left lonely in the safe and they all get to come out and play. There are politics in all of the organizations, and I'd about say that IDPA (IMHO) is the worst in that regard, but nevertheless, it's their game, you shoot their rules. I'm interested in getting rounds downrange, so I shoot both now. Club level matches tend to be more relaxed in general, but I'm looking forward to doing some larger matches in the future. As for the personality type shooting these games, I'm sure you'd find pretty much the gamut, but the most common traits would likely be a desire to compete and an addiction to the adrenaline rush a stage can provide. In my case, I've played team sports through college, climbed rocks and mountains, and drive cars at speeds I won't admit to, but the common factor for me is a form of competition and the rush. Most of the other competitors I've met have been great folks so I guess the company goes along with that.

In NC- Wilkesboro Carthage Oxford Raleigh In NC, the Oxford match is the biggie. Carthage is shot every month. I think Raleigh and Wilkesboro are too, but I'm not sure about those. There is another one that is held on an anual basis in Fayetteville. That's four that I can think of right off the bat. There's a couple in TN, the Dixson match is supposed to be pretty good. I'm new to 3 gun myself, but have been seriously addicted after just one match at Carthage.