ltrain7281

I get what you are saying about everyone doesn't need a blue ribbon and you are right that this is a competition. But it should be a competition between shooters shooting equal epuipment. Your Limited division that you compete in didn't become a division until 17 years after the sport started. The only division in the beginning was Open, I would be willing to bet that there was a large number of people that wanted their own division back then because they were tired of competing against Open shooters. That is really how we have gotten to where we are today in our sport.

Why do you have to remove one? What division do you currently shoot?

I think we should go all the way back to when there was only one division, OPEN division. But then there would be way too much crying by by your lower class shooters because they will still get their butts kicked by people that actually practice.

These are NOT true words... This is from someone who's division was created by exactly the same ideas I have mentioned. Every division we have, had to get it's start from somewhere.

Jason, I totally agree with you. I don't care if they create a division for every gun out there. Let people shoot what they want to shoot. The way I see it is after they created PCC we might as well open the flood gates. People keep talking about watering down the divisions, I do not see this in the pistol divisions. BUT PCC is the best example of watering down I have seen. Most B and C class pistol shooters are now M class PCC shooters. Most of them could barely break the half way mark in the overall standings in monthly matches with their pistols and but now with their PCC's they are typically in the top 10 to 15 in the overall.

The Glock 19 is not a competitive Production pistol against a heavier Shadow or Tangfo. YES, if you are shooting limited with a Glock 19 you are shooting against the custom 2011. Plain and simple. Don't believe that... Go to a match and shoot your compact gun in Limited. When the match is over go to Practiscore and look at the "Old Style Results" Your name will be in listed in Limited division. I actually get what you said about competing against yourself and the clock but in 6 years I have seen very few people that will actually look at it that way. For whatever reason I tell them the same thing and it goes in one ear and out the other. As far as Bob Vogel, he could beat 99% of all shooters in a match with a bean flip and Crown Royal bag full of rocks... People shoot what they want to shoot plain and simple. But the shooters that have asked me why they don't have a division for compacts have a valid question. I think about it this way, compact guns are made primarily for everyday carry and personnel protection. Your competition guns like Walther Q5 Match, Glock 34, Shadow 2, Tangfo Stock 2's etc. are made for competition. They have a mechanical/weight/sight radius advantage over the smaller lighter compact guns. Give the compacts their own division and list of rules and mag restrictions (example 10+1 like production) and let them play.

Very true, Last club match I traveled to the MD of the match asked me if I would look after this new shooter. Being the MD of our club I have no problem with that as I typically put all of our new shooters on my squad or with an experienced CRO. This young guy showed with his Glock 19, 5 or 6 mags and only two mag pouches. He had actually read the rules for IDPA before he came, I am not sure if he thought he was going to an IDPA match or a USPSA match but he was really shocked when we all started doing our walk through's and air gunning . He started off shooting Production with only 10 rounds in his mags. We quickly changed him over to Limited minor and told him to fill up his mags as he ran out of ammo on the first stage. Now here's the cool part, this young fellow was deaf and could barely talk. We had to communicate by him lip reading. When we started him on each stage we would have to touch him on the shoulder with the timer so that he would know to start. I know this story is off topic but I thought I would share simply because I think it's really cool that this young guy showed by himself with his disabilities to a very intimidating sport.

waktasz, we have revolver friendly match in January every year as well. But we do not dumb down anything, the stages are every bit as tough and complex as normal 8 round neutral but we use a 6 round neutral design. Our stages will still be 28 to 32 round field courses but we make it to where there are more shooting positions or we make it to where there are more options to running to slide lock if you are in division like SS or Production. The old school revolvers (6 shot) they have to go to every position shoot their 6 shots and move. Everyone else is trying to figure out if it is better to just do extra reloads or take the chance and try to get two positions out of one mag. Basically, you get a lot of options for the normal divisions. I'm not sure what all you have read in this thread but I am not trying to create a different match. What some of my shooters have asked me is why the compact guns have to compete against full on Limited and Production guns. What I am proposing is a division that pits the compacts against compacts and gets them out of Production and Limited divisions. They will use the same equipment (Belts, holsters, mag pouches, etc.) that Production or SS uses and shoot the same field courses as everyone else in the match. I think we should limited their mag capacity to 10+1 just like production. Except now they are competing against guns that are the same size and weight and not against a Shadow 2 or Limited 2011. I am not trying to change any of the divisions, I am just trying to get a division where like sized guns have a place to compete right along side all the guns and divisions we have.

moto- Let me ask you a very simple and straight forward question. What division and gun to typically shoot in matches? And why do you prefer this gun over other guns?

HI5-O, that's a very good idea, thank you. This is exactly the type of ideas and suggestions I was hoping for when I created this post. When I typically set up a match in Practiscore I select the default categories. So I would bet that I could make a custom or special category like you suggested for people to sign up in. I will check this out next month when I set up our monthly match. Thanks again for the suggestion.

I have no idea what IDPA is doing and what their divisions are. I have heard a lot of complaints just like what you have mentioned about rule changes and such. As far as a weight limit on this division in USPSA, I have no problems with one. We currently have weight limits in at least two divisions, Prod and SS and those do not seem to be a problem. As far as your statement regarding pinching the bottom of their hand on a Glock 19, allow aftermarket magwells. USPSA is our sport we can make the divisions how ever we like.

motosapiens your missing my point, I am not whining because I do not have a division to compete in. As stated in an earlier post, I compete in Production division which believe it or not was an idea just like what I am pitching to everyone now. What I am asking is do you think that Glock 19 and STI 2011 are equal and deserve to be pitted against each other at matches? People like shooting the guns that they like, plain and simple. There is not a division where the compact guns are on an equal playing field with each other. Here is a common scenario I see very often on the local level as an MD. New guy shows up to a match with his new Glock 19 or similar gun. He or she has never shot a match before and is asking what division should that they should shoot. I try to ask the normal questions like are you a pretty decent shot with a pistol have you ever shot while being timed etc. etc. You know, just trying to get a feel of how new they really are. At our match it is not uncommon for us to have several 32 round all steel stages. So I will typically tell the new shooter to load their mags full and shoot Limited minor. We start the match and they get to their squad and they see all these really sweet 2011's, and Tangfolio's and all the other cool toys that us shooters have. The next question I typically get asked is "Am I competing against that 2011?" Then I have to tell them that yes you are shooting against that sweet 2011. Then once they find out the price of that 2011 they have sticker shock that in order for them to be competitive in this division they are going to have to spend X amount of dollars. I always try to convince them that to not worry about what everyone else is shooting or doing, just focus on getting better with the gun you have. If later on down the road you want to dive in deeper in this sport then go all out and get the custom 2011, Open gun or whatever else you want to shoot (Except PCC, I hate this division, but that's a story for another time). A lot of times I never see this person at a match again. Other times they do exactly what you said, they suck it up and buy a car (gun in this case) a shoot in this division. Your comment "The more people are in each individual division the better the competition is and the better the matches are." I'm sorry but completely disagree with this statement. Just because people are forced into a couple of divisions does not make for better competition. I hate to burst you bumble on this but if you are not in the top 10 overall in whatever division you are competing in, you are just there to help fund the match. Or as I like to say "Your money in the pot". Or at least that is how I have always looked at. High Master, High A class, High B class etc. etc. All money in the pot. Your competition is at the top, those that are fighting for the number 1 spot. That is where the competition is. When I go to bigger matches I know that I am "Money in the pot" but I go to see if I have closed the gap any between the top competitors in my division and myself. I don't mean for any of this to come across as offensive or in any way derogatory. But as an MD I have been asked by several different people about this type of division and I have seen the scenario that I stated above happen many times. When I was first asked about it I had basically the same reaction as most everyone on here has had. Man up and just shoot Production or Limited was my first initial thought. But after I thought about it for a few days I saw their side or way of thinking. One guy put it this way, USPSA already has Open division why was there a need to create Carry Optics? He makes a good point, I don't have answer for that. All I am asking is that people think a little outside the box. Every division we currently have, started with someone and a gun that did not quite fit in the current divisions that were available at the time.

Don't you have to wear a vest or some other type of concealment clothing to cover your gun in IDPA? What I am asking is the same type of holsters, mag pouches and belts that we normally use in USPSA. But a division where the compact guns like Glock 19's and CZ P10C's compete against each other and not custom 2011's or Shadow 2's.

Why not? Why does someone who wants to shoot a compact gun have to compete against someone who wants to shoot a custom 2011 or a really heavy Shadow 2?

Motosapiens how would this division water down USPSA? This sport started with only one division in 1977, Open division. Ever since 1977 when the sport was created it has constantly been evolving. It took 16 years after the first open nationals to create Limited division. https://uspsa.org/pages/champions please see link to USPSA national champions page. This gives a good visual of how and when all the current divisions have came about. What I have been asked by several people that shoot our sport is why is it that they have to go head to head with 2011's and Shadow 2's if they want to shoot a more traditional size carry gun? Why isn't there a division for these like sized guns to compete against each other? Personally, I think those are some legitimate questions. To me it looks like these guns were just kind of lumped into Limited and Production division because they didn't really fit the bill anywhere else.

Jason, no worries there, I have no intentions of changing our monthly match to an outlaw match. We will always hold a sanctioned USPSA match on our normal weekend as long as I am the MD. What I am thinking though, if there is enough interest on the local level for a division for these sized guns I could come up with a set rules just like I did last year for our outlaw 2 gun matches that we have. What you said about having a side match/division that shoots along side of our regular matches is exactly the same thing I was thinking. I do not want this division to be anything like IDPA. Only thing I would like to see is a division for these shorter barrel guns to compete against like sized guns. Not have to go toe to toe with custom 2011's and heavy steel framed productions guns that have a definite advantage over them. As far as the taller bays... we will be having some more dirt work done sometime soon and I believe that they are supposed square up the berms and put the dirt that has washed off of the sides back up on top of the berms. You will have to tell me the full story as to what you did as I am still confused as to what happened.

2MoreChains, this is really a great idea and something I have been thinking about doing at our club. Does your club require you to draw from concealment in your outlaw match? Or is it up to the shooters if they want to use a cover garment or not? Personally, I do not want to allow cover garments as that put us back in IDPA territory but I am also not against it if that is what the shooter wants to do. I know that there are several shooters that compete in USPSA shooting with appendix style holsters and their shirt un-tucked to cover their pistol and mags. There used to be a guy that would be on Ben Stoeger's pod cast that I believe made Master shooting with an appendix holster and his shirt un-tucked in Limited division. I do not remember his name or all the details but I do remember watching some videos of him shoot and was very impressed with his skills shooting this way. Now just so that we are clear it is not my intention to create a division or anything else that requires USPSA shooters to draw from concealment or anything of that nature. What I am proposing is a division where the guy that wants to shoot his Glock 19 or CZ P10C is NOT competing against someone shooting a custom 2011 in Limited or a tricked out Shadow 2 in Production.

Tattooo, I don't know as I haven't asked them. I have talked to several different people that are in marketing and sales at a couple of the different gun manufactures and they thought a carry division would be a great idea. Everyone keeps saying that we have too many divisions already. This seems strange to me because if you go to USPSA's website and look under National Champions you will notice that in 1977 to 1993 the only division was Open. Now I will be completely honest I was not around in 1977 and have no idea what an open gun back in those days looked like or what kind of restrictions were enforced. But, what I do believe is that if we kept the same attitude back then as we currently have on this thread we would still only have one division. I will from time to time compete with with one of my compact carry guns at a local match just for something different. My initial thoughts on this division after I got asked about it a month or so back was to make it strictly a stock gun division, no modifications at all. But after thinking about it for a couple of weeks and seeing the new changes that are happening in Production I knew there would be no way to police this and keep everyone honest and legal. So basically what I would like to see is a carry style division where the gun has a 4" or shorter barrel and would basically fit inside a predetermined sized box (Like production only smaller) and also have an approved handgun list. Magazine capacity is a never ending conversation so let USPSA decide on the capacity 10,12,15 as long as it is practical and the gun fits the box with the empty mag I'm good with it. I typically only shoot production so I am used to planning stages around 10 round restrictions so no biggie, just make it the same for everyone in the division. Now when it comes to accessories and modifications I say let the shooters do whatever they want as long as the gun fits the box. You want an to add an Apex trigger, no problem, you want to have front serrations added on the slide or the finger grooves removed or maybe undercut the trigger guard, no problem. Allow all the mods the shooter wants as long as it fits the box or is an approved gun and see what people come up with. As far as holster and mag pouches, I would suggest making it something along the lines of what Single Stack shooters have to use. Several people have stated that IDPA already has this division. I have never shot a sanctioned IDPA match so I am not familiar with their divisions or rules. I agree with people that I think we should keep our sport far as we can away from theirs as possible. I do not see where adding a division for these carry sized guns makes us similar or copying them in any way. We are our own sport with our own set of rules and our own following of members. A certain gun does not turn us into IDPA. If that was the case Single Stack should be renamed to Gateway to IDPA division.LOL Several people have said that these sized guns are approved for production and limited division. That is correct, but how often do you see someone competing in these divisions with a compact gun? Probably not very often. My personnel opinion on this is because that most people myself included do not want to handicap ourselves in a match competing with a smaller gun compared to our competition. There is a big difference in recoil and sight forgiveness between a compact sized gun and a full sized gun. The longer sight radius on a full sized competition pistol is going to have a big advantage over a shorter sight radius-ed pistol. If you have your doubts on this look into some of the NRA High Power Rifle competitions where they use metallic sights. There is a reason they use a very long barrel with the sights mounted as far apart as possible. It helps make the gun more forgiving when you have a little sight mis-alignment. I think we could all agree that if you took two shooters that were equal in all areas and gave one of them a Shadow 2 and one of them a P10C, the shooter with the S2 is going to have an advantage. Especially in managing recoil and some in sight radius/forgiveness. What I am asking people for is to open your minds and think about it this in a couple of different ways. 1. If we really have too many divisions why have we added all these other divisions over the last 40 years? See link: https://uspsa.org/pages/champions 2. If you look at how the gun manufactures have responded with new guns and innovations in their designs it is quite impressive. Just about every pistol manufacture now offers an optic ready competition sized gun. Most of them are now offering a compact sized gun that is optic ready as well. The new gen 5 Glocks now come with a flared magwell, I personally think this is a great idea on a competition gun and I am sure that Glock will have no problem hitting the 2000 production quota to be legal for Production division. Let's see what they can come up with. 3. Not everyone is the same and likes what you or I like... what I'm getting at is some people like shooting Single Stacks and that is all they are interested in, others like shooting Limited and that is all they are interested in, while others like shooting Open and that is all they are interested in, some one else likes shooting Compact Carry sized guns and that is all they are interested in. We are all different and all have our own likes and dislikes about what kind of guns we want to shoot. Give this gun it's own place to compete and see what happens. I may have stated this in one of my earlier post but if we can create a division for PCC's to play and compete why would we not do the same for compacts?

No, this would be for compacts only. RO's wouldn't be carrying around rulers either. USPSA would have to create an approved handgun list just like they have for Production division. As Agent #1911 stated in his post is that these guns are already approved in Production division but you hardly ever see anyone shooting these compact guns. Why is that? As a local MD I have asked many people when I see them competing with their compact guns why they don't shoot it more. They always give me answer something like "I know I can't be as competitive in Production or Limited as someone shooting a much larger and heavier gun". I have heard several people say that we have too many divisions already. I don't fully understand this comment, what does it hurt to have a division for every style of pistol to compete? As I said above and I am not hating on PCC but we created a division for them to compete in but we don't have a division for the most popular guns sold in the U.S.? I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here everyone, what I am interested in is why do we not have a division for these guns to compete in? Just to give you guys some background on myself as I typically do not make a lot of post. My name Loren Pendergrass, I am the MD of Practical Pistol/USPSA at Old Fort Gun Club in Fort Smith, AR. I am Master class Production shooter and part of team Walther. The reason I state all this is I do not want this to be a turd throwing thread but a thread where we can actually have a good conversation about a division I personally feel is very long overdue in our sport. If you are not a MD or someone who is putting on matches regularly then you probably do not get asked this very often or ever. But here is the question I get asked all the time by new people wanting to get into our sport. They typically send me an email or PM through messenger when they hear that we are going to have our monthly match. They will say something like " Hello my name is ***, I have never shot USPSA before but I just bought a Glock 19 and would really like to come out and shoot. Can I come out and shoot this match with this gun? I will email them back and tell them Yes, you can shoot your Glock 19 or what ever other gun they have in typically Limited, Production, or L10 divisions. I tell the minimum amount of equipment that they need to have and if they do not have it to let me know as I have a lot of extra gear that I can let them borrow. At our match we typically run a lot of steel so I try to persuade them to shoot Limited minor if at all possible. But after the match they almost always come up to me and say how great of time they had and how much of an adrenaline rush our sport is. But then they typically ask or say something to the affect of you know I am/was the only person I saw shooting XX model compact gun today. Why is that? Then I tell them that USPSA is a sport and that most people are out here to compete and that the compacts are not going to be as competitive as a 40+ ounce Shadow 2. So why do we not have a division for these guns? We have divisions for everything else?

Sarge I am not talking about small single stack sized carry guns, I am talking about double stacked carry guns. Our stages are limited to 32 rounds which is well with in the magazine capacity of the double stacked guns that I am talking about. I don't compete in IDPA so I have no idea what divisions they have. When you say that "Our USPSA stages are too big for them" it doesn't make a lot of sense. We have 4 divisions currently where you are limited on your magazine/cylinder capacity, (Revolver, Production, Single Stack, L10) all of these divisions have no issue getting through a 32 round field course. Our sport is a GAME plain and simple why not have a division for the most popular sized pistols to play is the question? I mean why on earth would we create a division for PCC and not the most popular sized pistols sold in a sport that was created to make a person a better pistol shooter?

I would like to get some opinions on a new proposed division in USPSA geared more towards actual compact sized carry guns. The size guns I am talking about would be double stack guns that have a 4" or shorter barrel, examples would be Glock 19, M&P Compact, Walther PPQ 4", CZ P10C just to name a few. The reason I bring this up is that the most popular pistols that are bought and sold in the U.S. are these compact double stacked sized guns. I talked to several of the popular pistol manufactures to try and get some numbers for comparison, what several of them told me was that they sell anywhere from 5 to 8 of the compact models to every 1 of the longer/competition sized pistols. Now, I know what a lot of people will say that these guns are already legal to compete in several of the current USPSA divisions like Limited and Production etc. BUT, how often do you see people using these shorter barrel guns at matches??? As a local MD here in Arkansas I can tell you that I rarely see more than 1 or 2 shooters per match that bring their compact pistols out to compete, typically it is 1 or none. Most people that shoot on a regular basis are going to be using one of the longer competition sized guns like a G34, Q5 Match, or Shadow 2 etc. There is a big advantage with the longer heavier competition sized guns over the compacts and most people who are serious and compete in Production or Limited are not going to handicap themselves by using a smaller gun. What I would like to get from this post is feedback on whether or not you all think this division would be worth adding or not? We currently have many divisions that are geared towards certain styles of pistols like Open is geared towards the full on race 2011's. Limited is geared towards the high end 2011's and newly crowned G24, (Also worth mentioning is L10). Single Stack and Revolver, I don't think these need any explaining as to what they are geared towards. Production... This division is kinda all over the place, I would say the steel framed guns have become the majority of what you are going to see at bigger matches but at local matches it tends to be a very wide array of different type pistols. Carry Optics is no where near "CARRY" since it is full sized guns with 140mm mags. Let's just rename this division to "GHETTO OPEN" and move on. PCC division, here is a great division that does nothing to better a persons ability to shoot or manipulate a pistol but has brought a lot of growth to the sport and a lot of innovation in pistol cartridge AR variant style rifle/carbines. With all these divisions that we currently have, there is really no good place for the number 1 sized pistols to play and compete on a level playing field.

Try calling Fusion Firearms. They are the only dealer of LPA sights in the States as far as I am aware. https://www.fusionfirearms.com/walther-q5-match-fiber-optic-sight-set

pm semt

Simple answer to the OP question is YES in my opinion. The main reason why is that no matter what your classification is, when you finish a match and all scores are tallied and combined you are compared to all of other shooters in the match and your division. Example: I am mainly a production shooter, my current classification is Master. Now if I decide to go to the Production Nationals and all the top GM shooters are there we all shoot the match and Ben Stoeger wins, everyone else's score are based off of his. So lets say I shot the best match of my life and I placed 2nd just behind Ben. Was I shooting against Ben? Absolutely!! Now when it comes time to walk the production prize table I will be the second one to get to pick my prize. Now lets say I had a very very bad match and I placed 60th or lower, and there was a bunch of "A","B", "C", shooters that placed ahead of me. Should I get to walk the prize table before these people that shot a better match than me just because I have a higher classification? The answer is NO in my opinion and that is why they have a HOA for the match and per division. In the OP there's a comment stating that Pros come from "D" class to "GM" these days. Now this is just my opinion but if I shoot a clean solid match without any malfunctions and I get beat by a "D" class shooter whether they are PRO (paid by someone to shoot for their company) or an amateur "D" class shooter THAT"S JUST EMBARRASSING!!! PERIOD!! Or they are one hell of a sandbagger. I am not trying to take away from someone who is classified lower than me but based on my classification I should be a more advanced shooter than them. Now with that the above being said if you go into a match thinking you are shooting against the PRO shooter and that you have to beat them. You've probably already lost. You always shoot your match at your speed. I have shot a lot of local matches over the last several years and have won several HOA's for the match and a bunch of HOA's for production division and have still been pissed off by the way I shot. Just two or three weekends ago I shot a local match and won the HOA for the match but on one particular stage I had two misses on head shots from trying to transition to quickly. This particular stage only one person shot this stage clean for the match, he is a "B" class open shooter and he slowed way down and took an extra shot at each of the heads to make sure he got his two hits. A miss in a match really pisses me off but two on one stage this just about put me into orbit. But I shook that off and moved on but the next weekend instead of going to a match I went to the range and shot about 400 rounds just practicing on this type stage scenarios. It was basically Ben Stoegers distance change ups with some moving involved. I am sorry for rambling so much above but basically my opinion is everyone is shooting against everyone. If you are not happy with the way you shoot or where you finish at a match or that Ben or Max or some other PRO or amateur kicked you a$$. THEN YOU NEED TO PUT ON YOUR BIG BOY BRICHES AND PRACTICE MORE!! DON'T TAKE AWAY FROM THEM FOR PUTTING IN THE TIME AND EFFORT THAT IT TOOK TO GET TO THEIR LEVEL.

Over the last 3 years I shot around 60,000 rounds of different coated bullets. These were all out of Glock pistols (G17, G34, & G35) and I have had no issues what so ever with coated bullets. Below is a list of different bullet manufacturers I have tried over the last 3 years: Black Bullets International Bayou Bullets Black and Blue Bullets Acme Bullets SNS castings I have loaded everything from 124 grains to 147 grains in 9mm and from 155 grains to 200 grains in 40 S&W. All these manufacturers produce high quantity bullets and I highly recommend any of them. I know that some people will won't to know which brand is more accurate or which one I prefer over the other. I really have no preference. When I setting up a new competition load for USPSA I am not too worried about having one hole accuracy, that would be expecting way to much out a Glock anyway. I typically test from 20-25 yards and if I can keep the majority of my shots in an 6 inch white paper plate I consider it good for this sport. The most important thing for when determining a load for our sport is the way that it feels during recoil and how fast the sights return to the target. This will also depend a lot on what your current skill level is. From my experience when I first started in this sport three years ago I liked the soft shooting loads. They seem to me that they were easier for me to control the recoil and to track the sights. As I progressed (now Master class in Production) I much more prefer a "snappier" feeling load. When I compare the softer shooting loads now to the snappier feeling loads it seems to me that the gun is sluggish feeling. Now here's the dilemma, when I test the soft loads and snappier loads in different drills on a timer there is really no difference in time, only my conscious feeling of thinking that the gun is running slower even though it is not. So since I am not rich person I tend to go with the lighter bullets since I get more for my money and get to practice more. I hope this info helps, as these are just my experience's over the last several years.