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Respectfully it's not convenient for me to say more than I'm a Canadian now living in the US and this is why I'm trying to learn more about the USPSA point of view.

Yes I did mean USPSA but this is a USPSA/IPSC rules forum so did you think I mean the US government? I didn't accuse anybody in particular of anything so why are you being so defensive?

Ok if everyone thinks that's best but I gotta say I'm very uncomfortable. I keep reading posts from people with megaphones to tell us about how bad IPSC is and how they're the most evil people in the world and how they screw everything up but as soon as questions about US flip-flops are asked people clam up and you can hear the proverbial pin drop in here and I don't think it's coz nobody knows the answer.

Interesting - I had no idea but was the ultimatum sent coz the US flip-flopped on the two things that we know about above or is there more to this than meets the eye? Also why would this topic be closed, coz we're only recalling history?

Excuse my ignorance but you lost me. What are you talking about?

I just read the minutes of that meeting at the IPSC website and I found another real humdinger: 19.10 Motion: That the Major power factor floor for Open Division be 160. Moved: USA Seconded: Slovenia For: 26 Against: 5 Abstain: 3 Carried How come USA voted for 160 then changed it to 165? That's two flip-flops from one meeting!

This is an interesting non-emotional discussion. Cool. I don't know all the history and inner workings but I wonder what would happen if every country in IPSC wanted to do the same thing as the US? Wouldn't that destroy things? I mean let's say Canada wanted overtime shots to be after 5.15 seconds and Mexico wanted it to be 5.45 seconds etc., then what? What happens if the same happens with 20 other rules? Enquring minds want to know.

At the Global Village Vince Pinto said they have a special version which shows all the changes but it's for limited distribution, but they might be able to release it soon for everybody.

They posted a copy of the anti-doping policy at the Global Village a few months back and a very interesting debate followed. I'd hate to be the guy collecting the urine samples though

I had a look at the new rules and it's kinda tough spotting some changes, but I see a whole new section on match ammo in rule 5.8. Does anyone have a list of the other changes? What's the status of the USPSA rulebook? Did we get an exemption yet? If so, is the green book still in force or do we change to the IPSC rulebook now?

You make 'em and I'll buy a gross or two!

Sorry Jim but I still don't buy it, and one reason is coz your argument shuffles all over the place from "real life" to "it's a game". If we go the "real life" route, if I only need 2 hits to fubar a bad guy, then I only need 2 hits to fubar a hostage. If we go the "it's a game" route, which is what it's really all about, then if we limit the scoring upside by 2, we should limit the penalty downside by 2, for misses and no shoots. The other thing is what percentage of total no shoots used in a year are hit more than 2 times? My wild guess is 2% or less, so why all the heartache? Happy Holidays to all.

I was sold on the new rule because of the 2-2-2 formula. We count best two on scoring targets, a maximum of two misses and "worst two" on no shoots. What's wrong with that? If we want to count every hit on a no shoot, then we should count every hit on a scoring target too coz I wasted extra time to get them. We should also count all stray shots that hit nothing as misses, with no upper limit. I don't care which way we go, but it should be all shots counted or we retain the current limits across the board. Singling out no shoots for special treatment just doesn't make any sense.

Woohoo. I finally found the thread but the search thingy is real slow today: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...indpost&p=83597.

IIRC the divisions were never part of the "compliance" deal - I did a search but couldn't find the thread where that comment was posted. As far as the other stuff goes, if you don't like any of the rules in the other sections, why not just apply for a waiver from USPSA from those rules for your club, the same way USPSA applies for a waiver from IPSC? Seems fair to me.

I think the real problem is that one knee-jerk reaction caused most of our problems. When the AWB came into force, we should've just restricted Limited (and maybe Open) to "10 rounds loaded" and not create a whole new L10 division identical in all respects to Limited except for the round count. Then it would've made even more sense to have a Single-Stack division but we even got that wrong coz it's really a Single-Stack 1911 Only division.

Patrick - great history lesson!

How do you figure that? If there was a split, what would each party lose?

Thanks, but no thanks, coz I don't need a private hammering. I like the rule the way it is now. It's the same for everybody, so no big deal. Kyle, thanks for the split.

Kyle, I hope you don't mind me asking Jim another question coz I'm trying to understand his logic: But that's true of misses too, but we only count 1 on steel and 2 on paper, right?

Sounds like flawed logic to me. There are two bad guys visible in front of one good guy visible. How can you make up other people who aren't there as you go along? If you want to count all hits on the good guys, how come you don't want to count all the hits on the bad guys?

It doesn't matter how many normal poppers you have. The no-shoot poppers are the only things that get you penalties, and the most you can get is 2 penalties per no shoot, no matter how many times you hit it. This sounds fair to me coz you can only earn a maximum of 1 alpha on the normal popper, no matter how many times you hit it.

I rarely get involved in these discussions so treat me like the lurker I am. However, the rule 10.5.3 does not say anything about it having to hit the ground. It states " drops or causes it to fall". If the gun is in the air out of your control you have caused it to fall. I know 99% of shooters believe if it don't hit the ground, no harm no foul, but that is not how the rule reads. Trying to catch a falling loaded gun in a course of fire is asking for disaster. Just ask the shooter who did it at Reno on the oven mitt stage in the mid-90's. Jay <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My question involved an UNLOADED gun OUTSIDE of a course of fire, when it is not a DQ to drop a gun, only a DQ to pick it up without calling an RO. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Read Flex's reply <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I read Flex's reply, but then I also read 10.5.14, and it reads: Retrieving a dropped firearm. Dropped firearms must always be retrieved by a Range Officer who will, after checking and/or clearing the firearm, place it directly into the competitor’s gun case, gun bag or holster. Dropping an unloaded firearm or causing it to fall outside of a course of fire is not an infraction, however, a competitor who retrieves a dropped firearm will receive a match disqualification. So the question still remains, "What if you catch it?" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good question.

Gee, where's Jim or Jerry when ya need them to tell us again why that's not enough penalties (upside 5 points, downside -40 points)?

I don't know about EzWs, but the report you want has been a feature available from WinMSS for a while now.