Cuz
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Posts posted by Cuz
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1.160 is near reported max for the glock mags.
I'd go with 1.450 OAL. You have the Para, right? See if those will cycle in the Para at that length.
Since you don't need to make Major, 3.8-4.0 of TG ought to be plenty.
Flexmoney,
Thanks for the input. I've been reading so much about extending the length to increase reliability in the Para P16 but so far I've had excellent results with any length I've shot. That's what has me thinking about shortening the oal and coming up with a Minor load that will work in the Glock too. No sense having seperate loads for each if it's not necessary. At least not until my shooting improves to the point where I want to enter matches that use a Chrono anyway.
I'll try some 4.0 gr of TG at 1.450 to start. If I like them in the Para I'll try them in the Glock.
Thanks,
-Cuz.
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I searched the forum and only found one reference dating back to 2003 so I'm asking.
Can anyone give me a starting point on the maximum oal for the Glock model 23? A friend of mine has one and I expect to be doing a good deal of shooting with it so I'd like to make up a load (Minor) that will function in his new Glock 23 and my Para P16-40. I don't want to be bringing two different loads using the same bullet to the range. I'm using Montana Gold 180 gr JHP and TiteGroup powder. I couldn't get the magazine loaded with some rounds loaded to 1.160 so I know that's too long. Since I no longer have the mag or gun handy I'm hoping you guys can help. I'd like to go as long as possible, but all input is appreciated. Thanks,
-Cuz
I was thinking of using between 4.0 - 4.2 grains of TG powder but if anyone thinks that's a problem please chime in.
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- If your gun is running 100%, then leave the OAL alone.
- If you don't have to make a certain (Major) power factor for the matches that you shoot, then don't go up any at all (I'd back off some, minor loads with TG feel great.)
- If you aren't sure what flattened primers are, then found out. They are a sign of over-pressure. You need to learn to recognize signs of pressure if you are going to be reloading...especially 40...even more so at Major velocity.
Flexmoney,
I just kicked the load back to 4.3 gr and loaded up 100 rounds to try tomorrow. That should increase both the safety margin and comfort level until I actually "need" to make major. Thanks for the info. Now, how can I find out more about flattened primers? Never mind, I already know. I'm sure it's here somewhere, so back to the keyword search screen I go....
-Cuz.
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but what is it??????????????????????
It is revealed in the original thread.......
XRe,
Can you kindly point me to the original post? I've just spent an hour trying to find it. I did learn some interesting information, but not the one thing I was looking for.
Thanks,
-Cuz.
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Cuz, if your pistol is feeding 100% there really is no need to go longer with the loads you are useing.If you are just plinkin&playing the load you have is good. If you compete and want to shoot major you need to chrono and proably punch it up a little. Til then just have fun, your load is safe.-----Larry
Thanks lkytx,
That's what I wanted to know, that my load was safe and somewhere in the near vicinity of being Major. Appreciate it.
-Cuz.
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Thanks to everyone for your input. I was guessing my load was going to be borderline Major and it appears as though most of you seem to agree. I think I will leave it alone for now because It should be safe to shoot for fun and practice. Eventually I will get a chrono and will then check it. For now, I mostly shoot alone indoors so borrowing one is not an option. I would like to ask one more question. If I keep my load at 4.5gr TG with a 180gr MG JHP but extend the oal how does that affect the Power Factor? I'm guessing that as I extend the OAL from 1.158 out all the way to lets say 1.20 that the pressure will go down and also the Power Factor will go down. Can some of you please confirm this for me?
Thanks a bunch for all the replies, I really do appreciate them.
-Cuz.
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Just to stirr the pot a bit...
4.5 gr @ 1.190" in my 5" SV makes 175 PF with Star 180 JHP's. If you don't have a chrono, make sure you're taking a look at your primers after firing. If they are flattened, you need to back off. Once you get your chrono, you may still need to back off.
BigDave,
I don't understand what you mean by flattened? Are you looking at the primers from the outside of the case or the primer inside the case? When you say I may need to back off are you talking about the amount of powder or something about the primers?
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I also don't think you make it. HOWEVER developing loads for .40 major can be a lil "tricky" without a chrono (not to mention dangerous), you realy should get one CED, Pact, whatever, beg borrow or swipe one but you really need it.
Crusher,
While a chrono is important for match shooting I'm not convinced it's required just for casual plinking. I think I did a good job eliminating most of the "danger" from the equation by first purchasing a few different load books to review. Then I spent about a week scouring this forum cutting and pasting everyone's recipe's for the .40 that I could find. I used all of this data combined with the load books to finally decide on TiteGroup Powder and the Montana Gold 180gr JHP. Then I once again searched thru my data from this forum and pulled everything relating to TG powder and the 180gr JHP. from going over all that I initially started with loads down around the 4.2gr range and experimented up as high as 4.9gr with a long OAL which I "thought" would keep things relatively safe. My Para is relatively new and in good condition so I don't think I was doing anything dangerous.
I think that if I proceed slowly and double and triple check my figures and data that I can proceed safely.
The only reason I settled on the 4.5gr is because it tends to shoot comfortably and accurately. I still have some concerns about the oal. It seems most of you are really loading pretty long. I may stretch it out a bit and see if it makes a difference, but frankly I'm not sure what I'm gaining be extending the oal? If it's feeding reliability I've already got that (I think). If it's reduced pressure which increases safety then I'm all for trying it. How long is too long? When it stops feeding reliably?
-Cuz.
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I'll bet it shoots between 160 and 168PF depending on the actual dia. of your bore. OK for local matches and practice. You need to chrono before a major match.
Eric,
Thanks for the input. Right now all I'm doing is practicing and learning about shooting and loading the .40. I figure I'm probably a good six months from shooting this in any local matches where there are NO chrono's. Just plate shoots and such. Very low key. I'm just shooting it for fun and practice. I don't expect I'll ever shoot at a match where my loads actually get chrono'd so I don't really need to buy one. I just like to have some idea what the power factor range is for the load I'm shooting. That way when I read all the posts on this forum about what everyone else is doing I can go to the range and try it myself. Then, I just like knowing that I'm shooting a similar PF range as the rest of you guys. For that reason I will purchase a timer/chrono just to play with more than anything else. I'm just a hack who likes to shoot for fun, but doesn't really have any where near the amount of free time to ever get any good at it. But I'm not going to let that stop me from trying.
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Can someone provide a guess as to where my proposed load would be on the Power Factor scale? I'm using a 180gr Montana Gold JHP, 4.5 gr. TiteGroup powder with an oal of 1.158. I'm shooting it in a stock Para P16-40 LDA Limited.
I'm just looking for opinions, not facts. I don't have a Chrono, and the current holdup on Pact MK1vs means I won't have one for a little while. Besides, I want to wait for the new PACT MIV XP to come out before purchasing. Does anyone have any info on it?
Thanks a bunch,
-Cuz
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Just to wrap up, I rec'd some samples from MG and I was very impressed. They looked much better than I would have thought considering they are amont the least expensive. I ended up ordering a case of the 180gr JHP and was VERY surprised to get them in 3 days. My postal carrier didn't even try to deliver, he just stuck the card in my mailbox saying I had to go pick it up at the post office. Man, I bet the post office is going to rethink that policy about shipping anything that will fit in those little boxes regardless of weight. They weren't counting on the shooting industry.
Thanks for all the input. I appreciate it.
-Cuz.
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I am looking for suggestions onLimited guns that are legal and available in MA. I am using a SW1911 in Limited 10 at the moment. What are other folks using in the area? SVI has a Mass compliant version listed but where can you get them? Another option might be a used Para with serious work. Any smiths in the area who specialize in Paras?
bbrcape,
Is the SVI listed on BOTH MA lists? Or just on the Hi-Cap list? I think the gun has to be on both lists. If memory serves me the second list is the kicker. That's the one that means a sample was sent off for all kinds of ridiculous tests and such. I can't imagine SVI would submit a couple of their guns to such testing since they usually get ruined in the process.
BUT, if you do find out they are compliant, let me know when you order and I'll buy one two. I'm anxious to get my hands on a decent Limited gun. Right now I'm leaning towards buying the parts and having a smith build it. That ends up costing a few hundred bucks more than buying one outright and I dont' know whether or not you end up with a better gun.
Please share any info you find out with other MA shooters.
-Cuz.
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Hey I just thought of a friend her in MA that may be selling an SV short dustcover limited gun. Great shape. Not fired much. Email me if you are interested and I'll check with him.
Later,
Nick
Nick,
I'd like to hear more about that SVI for sale in MA. Can you send more details?
Are you sure it's MA compliant? Just because a MA resident currently owns it doesn't mean it can be sold to another MA resident.
Thanks,
-Cuz
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Has anyone heard anything about a new Pact Timer coming out? I think it's going to be the MKIV XP. I called Pact today to ask some questions about their MKIV. I wanted to know if they were changing anything soon and they said they should have a MKIV XP out around the end of August. He didn't give me any more info than that. Can anyone provide any other info?
-Cuz.
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Of course I have "just in case" firearms - I doubt anyone on these forums doesn't. I do keep "just in case" factory ammo in them, though, and have plenty of factory "just in case" ammo in stock besides my "enough ammo to start WWIII" match ammo.
Too funny Kevin. I hear ya loud and clear...
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You can't go wrong with either the CMJ or the JHP.
...I may as well make them JHP in case they are ever needed for some "other" use.
I've been told that MG's hollowpoints weren't designed for expansion at all.
I've also been told that using handloads as self defence ammunition is asking for trouble.
A case could be made for using what the local PD uses, and practicing with a ballistic equivalent for the sake getting the feel of the load, after testing the factory original extensively for reliability in your own self defence sidearm.
Just passing along advice received, fwiw.
Normally, I would never carry handloads for personal defense, but lets be realistic here. Just about all shooters have more than a few boxes of ammo stored away "just in case". Heck, I own a Mini-14 I've put a few hundred rounds thru and then stuck in the back of the safe "just in case". I'm not much into rifle shooting. Too long to walk to setup targets. I guess I was just kind of thinking out loud that if I was going to pretty much always have at least a case of bullet heads in the process of being loaded and shot then why not make them be hollowpoints rather than roundnose "just in case". I do a lot of things "just in case". Don't most shooters??? Anyway, that would be ONLY if there was no difference between them.
-Cuz.
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Cuz - FWIW, I use Federal's 230 grain non-Hydra-Shok JHP for my carry load. The product number is 45D. It's a standard velocity load (runs ~820-830 fps from my guns) that I get for about $14/box of 50 from Gil Hebard Guns (309.289.2700, no website). If you're not military or police, I think it runs about $16-17 a box. It's accurate, reliable, uses low flash powder, and both the bullet and primer are sealed. If you're looking for a carry load that's cheap enough to shoot, it's one possibility.
Actually I just started to look at those Federals, and also the Remingtons (not Golden Saber) because they are reputable and available in quantities of 50/box. It's a damn racket for the ammo mfg's once they all seemed to stop making their high performance ammo in 50 count boxes. I used to be able to by Speer Gold Dot boxes of 50 but not anymore. Thanks for the info.
-Cuz
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My P16 feeds pretty much anything I have tried. Even the loads for my STI that are at 1.200 OAL.
You may want to polish your feedramp per this post http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ramp,and,polish
Thanks for the link. I'll check it out right now.
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A handful of jams per 1,000 is totally inexcusable. There's no reason your gun shouldn't run 100%.
That's what I'll strive for. I'm there with my .45, but it's been worked on. Not counting revolvers, only my S&W 9mm and other "combat" type firearms function 100 %. My target/competition guns all needed work so I'm just assuming that in order to eliminate that handfull of jams I'll need to have some work done. For right now I'll accept the 80-90% reliability until I decide on a load to shoot, and then whether or not I like the gun enough to have work done to it. When I first bought it I really liked the LDA trigger, but now that I'm shooting it a lot I don't particularly care for the LDA trigger on a competition gun. I like it on a carry/defensive gun because I'm more comfortable with it. I was originally going to put a comp and electronic sight on this Para, but now I'll wait to find a single action gun. I'll keep this one the way it is.
-Cuz.
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I've used a bunch of each (i.e., multiple cases of each). There isn't much difference.
Also, I'm not sold on the reliability of the JHP in my guns. Maybe it coincided with my recoil springs and/or magazine springs going bad, but I had jams with JHP I just didn't have with FMJ or JHP.
Thanks for the info Eric. Reliability is a concern. A handful of jams per 1000 or so rounds I can live with. More than that and I worry. Although I've already had a few jams with my Para P16 that I think I'm attributing to the fact that I'm loading out to 1.135 OAL. Loading the .40 is new to me so I have a lot to work out. Plus I'm still using up the last of my Bullseye powder. Then I plan to switch to Power Pistol after searching thru many posts here. Seems like that and TiteGroup are the favorites if you don't count Vihtavouri. I don't see many places selling it locally. I appreciate your input.
-Cuz.
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Cuz,
I have a bunch of .40 180 CMJ and JHP from Zero. I'll bring a handfull of each to the RIMLC match Sunday if you can make it.
Steve
Thanks Steve. That'd be great. I plan on being there. Not sure if I'll shoot a .40 or .45 yet. I'll bring both and decide once I'm there.
See you Saturday.
-Cuz
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I'm thinking about switching to Wilson Combat's high performance .45 ammo in my carry gun. Has anyone tried it? Has anyone chrono'd it? I'm wondering how fast the 230gr hornady XTP bullets are going. While I'm on the subject I'd also like to know how fast the 200gr's are moving and whether or not they are +P. I sent Wilson an email but I don't know if they'll give out that info.
Anyone have any thoughts about using it as a defense ammo? Do you think it looks too much like a specialty load? Normally I would stick to straight factory ammo, but this is actually cheaper and since I shoot my carry gun a lot to practice I figure I'd give it some consideration. Comments?
-Cuz
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You can't go wrong with either the CMJ or the JHP.
Great, thanks for the info. Now I've eliminated FMJ and am down to two. Is there any performance difference between the CMJ and the JHP? I mean if they are absolutely positively the exact same then I guess I'll go with the hollow points based soley on the point that if I'm going to have a few thousand bullets at the house I may as well make them JHP in case they are ever needed for some "other" use.
Can someone tell me which one is taller? I might choose the taller one because that will give me more bullet in the case which may result in better bullet grip. that may minimize the chances of the bullet getting pushed back in the case during feeding.
Does either JHP or CMJ tend to feed more reliably? I have a stock Para P16.40 Limited LDA. If one was more reliable than the other I'd like to know. Yes I know I could order some and test, but if I'm going to order I'd like to order at least a case for the price break so I want to make as best a guess as I can.
Thanks again for the info.
-Cuz
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Ok, I've read the posts and done a lot of searching. I'm new to .40 caliber shooting and don't want to shoot any more lead. I've decided (after long hours of reading here) that I will buy a case or two of Montana Gold 180 gr bullets. Can you guys help me determine which one to choose? This is ONLY for recreational shooting and local matches. Nothing else. What is the difference (performance wise) between a JHP, the FMJ or the CMJ bullets. All responses are greatly appreciated. I want to figure this out before I buy 5000 of them.
-Cuz.
Maximum Oal For Glock 23?
in 10mm/40 Caliber
Posted
Thanks for all the input. The 1.145 oal worked fine in the Glock, but for some reason they weren't as accurate as the longer oal's in the Para. Could just be me rather than the oal. In any case I had some longer ones and everytime I used those I got tighter groups. I'm giving up on the idea of loading for both and and going back to longer oal for my Para. Maybe I'll just load up a batch for the Glock and set them aside for when my friend plans to bring the Glock.
-Cuz.