LtCop

I will have Tre there as a junior shooter. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doug, Well, it's been quite a while since I was on here. Welcome to the dark side.....revo's at the Cup. FWIW I shoot a 148 gr. Zero DEWC with W231, this year I was running them right about 890fps, but plan on backing that off for 2014. My gun is a K frame, so I try to stay away from Jacketed bullets. If I do my part the gun will keep them all in the black at 50.

Sorry to hear about Vera too. Tre' and I were at the March club match at GV with her. She remembered Tre' from shooting next to him at last year's Cup. She talked to him and encouraged him on for this years matches. She is a very nice lady and a great ambassador for this sport, she will be missed this year.

I was at work today when my wife sent me a picture of a box that came to the house.......yup, the new Dillon XL650 has finally arrived! Time to get busy....

I went to the range today with the cronograph and finally figured out what what load I am going to use this year. I was undecided until today, I thought I would be shooting some Hornady JHP's, but in order to make PF I had to jack the powder up to much for my K frame. I settled on Zero 148 gr. DEWC's (again) at 850fps. Since my new XL650 still hasn't arrived I guess I'll be loading rounds one at a time on the single stage.

A better view of the carmonized hammer.

Here's a picture of the work that Warren performed on the gun. The gun was loaded with snap caps when the picture was taken. There are pictures of the early version of the gun posted under the title "Warren knows his stuff" in the Bianchi Cup forum.

To much time on your hands isn't always a bad thing. but the problem is when you act on little or no knowledge of a subject. I was stuck at home last week due to the snow and began getting the urge to tinker with my open revolver. I wanted to "carmonize" the hammer on it. I have a dremel, probably enough ability to get it done and just enough knowledge of how to do it to be dangerous. Then it struck me, send Warren Moore an email with a few questions about it. About an hour later my phone rings and it's Warren on the other end. Instead of simply responding via email like most people would have done, Warren takes the time to call me about m my questoin. We discussed a few things then I asked the question....how much to have you do it? His answer was all I needed to hear to decide he needed to do this surgery, not me. I called Warren last Friday and asked if he was free to work on my gun on Saturday, sure was his answer, bring it on over. So, we took the family to K.C. and spent a couple of nights in a great hotel by the airport. Saturday I took the gun to Warren. When I got there we discussed what I wanted done to the gun........my list had grown. After he looked it over he came up with a few other suggestions of things to do that would enhance both the guns performance and hopefully my shooting of it. The list was pretty long of what he was going to do to the gun starting with "carmonizing" the hammer, then re arching the main spring, re tuning the trigger, reaming the forcing cone, lightly chamfering the muzzle, cutting the underlug down and re contouring it, adding a trigger stop to the back side of the trigger and taking out the end shake on the cylinder by stretching the crane instead of putting in a shim. He also checked all the screws on the stick shift and mounted the Aimpoint C3 I won last year in my grab bag at the Bianchi Cup. I thought the gun had a pretty nice trigger from when he worked on it a year ago. It is simply amazing now after last Saturday's work, I couldn't be happier with the gun now. Everything Warren did to the gun has a purpose. He talked me out of doing a few things to the gun that I had questions about and I'm glad I listened to him, Warren knows his stuff and I respect his opinion. Before I left with the gun and a big grin on my face Warren commented that my gun is now a top notch Action Pistol revolver, there simply isn't much else that can be done to it at this point to make it any better he said. I believe him, the gun handles and feels much better now. From the smoother trigger pull to the faster hammer fall, and the balance of the gun, it all works together well. All the shake (of the gun) as been eliminated after the hammer fall too which is really something, the carmonized hammer and trigger stop work well in concert. The hammer strike increased by a full pound as a result of the work he did, that should really help to eliminate any light primer strikes. I really appreciate Warren taking the time on his Saturday to work on my gun too, not many gunsmiths would do that. I'm glad I didn't tinker with the gun now!

Count me in, the Flagler Cup is always a good time with a bunch of great people. The range is well run and the food and prize table are always terrific. It's a great warm up prior to the Bianchi Cup too.

PM sent to you Dave. Thanks!

My dealer is looking, but has been unable to find a Witness Elite Limited in 9mm for me. Any suggestions on a dealer that may have one?

Chevyoneton, I started off in metalic in 2011 with a semi auto, then switched over to a revo. I purchased a S&W model 64 that had been converted into a PPC gun by Behlert Precision in 1989. I love shooting this thing! It had a Bomar rib on it, but that has since gone to the way side and I now shoot in the open class with it. I had Warren Moore rework the trigger, bob the hammer, add wings and a finger stop to the barrel, then one of his Stick Shift mover bases and we topped it off with a Ultra Dot match dot optic. I worked the factory target grips over and added my own prone base to the bottom of them. Somewhere on here are a couple of photo's of my gun. My scores have improved greatly since moving up to the open class. I shoot Zero 148 gr DEWC lead bullets. Like Kim said, stay away from the jacketed stuff. My powder of choice is 231 just because I had a bunch of it on hand. I get good accuracy from my loads and make power factor easily. I tried using CCI primers at first, but that didn't work at all with the light trigger pull, so I quickly made the switch to Federal's and I rarely have a misfire (light primer strike) from them. I shot it for the first time in competiton this year at the Flagler Cup, then went to Bianchi with it this year. The gun is an absolute pleasure to shoot. I've got a CR Speed holster for it and use Safariland Comp II speedloaders with a loading block. It sounds like you are on the right track with your plans of using your gun for AP events. Enjoy the game, it's challenging but you will meet lots of shooters along the way that will be more than willing to give you a helping hand. The Region X Match is coming up in Oct. at the Pioneer Gun club in K.C.MO. It's a fun laid back shoot, if you have a chance come and shoot it. John

Thanks for the input Jeromy. I don't know yet if we will be in KC for the Aug. shoot or not. We may be in Washington DC that weekend. I'll let you know if we can make it over, I'd love for Tre' to shoot the PM and Targetmaster. I wouldn't mind shooting the Targetmaster a few times myself. I appreciate the suggestion of the Targetmaster. That could be an option we could live with.

Here's my dilema. I want to buy my 13 year old son a 1911 for AP metalic class. I am looking for an accurate dependable gun for him to use. I have a Colt 1911 with a Kimber .22 conversion on it which he really likes to shoot. He practices with it quite a bit in fact. He used a Springfield XDM 9mm at this years Cup, but he prefers the 1911 platform. I've narrowed my choice down between a Springfield Armory Target 9mm and a Dan Wesson Pointman 9mm. The price difference between the two is $500, the Springfield being the lower of the two. That money would go a long ways towards extra mags, holster etc. I also have a $350 gunsmithing certificate from Gray Guns that I figure I will put towards a trigger job and whatever else I can get for the money. I like that the Dan Wesson has a checkered front strap and fiber optic sights, but the Springfield has an ambi safety alreay on it and his eyes are fine, so the black sights would probably work for him. Lets hear what opinions everyone has about either gun. Thanks, John

Looking forward to seeing everyone in Bates City on Sun, then off to the Cup for Wed. I hear ya Craig, last year was my first year shooting AP, my score at the Cup was dismal at best. This year looks to be better with the new open gun.

Kevin, Glad I could be of some help. This will be my first year with this gun at the Cup. I shot at the Cup for the first time last year in the metalic division with a semi auto. In spite of a dismal finish I was hooked after that experience and decided to get serious about the sport. Funds precluded building a semi auto open gun, so an open revolver was my best choice. I have considered buying a Jerry Miculek style grip for this gun and modifying it by adding a similar prone pad. That may have to be a project for next years Cup. With the double action trigger pull you will appreciate the wide base. There is no tendancy for the gun to torque as the cylinder rotates and you work through the longer trigger pull making it easy to keep the dot pinpointed. John

Kevin, The grips are stock S&W target K frame target grips that I modified with a dremel tool. I opted to use these grips so I could get a good high grip on the gun. The lack of finger groves helps me on my speed draws get that high grip for better recoil control. All the modifications I did are a personal thing and designed for my hand and body plus shooting style. I sanded some wood away from under the frame so I could get a higher grip. The front edge of the grips are now more staight up and down now thus reducing some of the overall surface of the grip allowing me to get a better grip on the gun. The bottom of each side panel received some attention also. I beveled the right and left side panels bottom edge so my big palm craddles the bottom of the grip better. Since I'm right handed I beveled the bottom edge of the left panel more since my left hand sits lower on it. I opened up the speedloader notch quite a bit with a dremel too. I lightly sanded down the sharp edges of the diamond checkering some too. The prone base is made from a solid piece of burled walnut that I had in my wood shop. It started off as a 4x4 inch square chunk of walnut. It took some time to make this....longer than I thought it would anyway. I started off with a plan in my head and worked from there. It doesn't interfere with my hands on the grip and is extremely stable when I go prone. The top of the prone base is strippled (by using a dremel beading tool), the bottom of it is smooth. I made the leading edge a rounded V shape and used a round over bit in the router to give it an smooth edge on the bottom so that it won't catch when I slide the gun on a shooting mat when going into my prone position (think of it like a V bottom boat cutting through water). When going prone I drop to both knees, then fall forward.......I'm old and slow. The base attaches to the bottom of both grip panels by 4 (2 on each side) fine thread wood screws. These holes had to be pre drilled through the prone pad and lined up with the bottom of each grip panel. I had to pre drill the grips for the screws to attach the prone base. I can remove the screws and then take the grip panels off for cleaning and maintance of the gun this way. Where it attaches to the bottom of the grip it is narrow enough that it does not interfere with my natural grip. I've toyed with the idea of recessing last years Bianchi Cup challenge coin into the bottom of the prone pad and epoxying it in place, but haven't gotten around to that yet. I use a CRSpeed holster and never have any problem with the grip hitting my side when I draw. The bottom of the prone pad was designed (with the height of it, and bottom edge being angled slightly) so that the dot is lined up with my eye and on target when I get behind the gun making for little adjustment and lost time with messing with the gun when lining up a shot. The gun moves very little under recoil on the ground with this pad making for very fast and steady follow up shots. The extra height of the prone pad allow me to grab the grip low when doing a weak hand transfer and get the gun into my off hand quickly and in the right grip position for a quick first shot (that is if I can find the dot!) The little bit of extra weight helps steady the gun when shooting free style too. I finished the grips and prone base with a couple of coats of a wipe on poly finish, then used some steel wool to knock the shine down. The gun does not feel like it is stuck to my hand (like with a rubber grip) and the gun can move naturally under recoil since the grips are smooth wood. If I botch the draw I can quickly re adjust my grip with a slick grip. I had considered buying either a Nill or Hogue Action Pistol style grip, but this was a lot cheaper, I made it myself and it is a custom fit for my hand/body. In my opinion the gun is much more stable with the wide bottom for prone shooting. When you hit the ground with it and plant the gun it does not rock from side to side as it would with a narrower prone pad. The gun is purpose built for Action Pistol shooting, but if I wanted to remove the wings and prone pad I always could and shoot another sport with the gun I guess. John

Unfortunately I just wasn't able to make it to K.C. to shoot this winter. My work schedule has gotten really FUBAR'd here recently, I'm back to working weekend days. This couldn't of come at a worse time. On a more positive note, the gun and I are getting along very well. I've been able to practice with it here quite a bit recently and am very pleased with the way it is shooting. I do plan on shooting the Flagler Cup and my application is in the mail for the Bianchi Cup, I'll see you in May!

I always thought I was a 1%'er, guess Jeromy bumped me to a 2%'er! Thanks man. Anyway, here's a few of my open revolver.

I found this on the skills board, thought it applied nicely to AP shooting. So far my best time is a 5 sheep average of .197. It's hard trying to catch one at all zero's! Try this at different times of the day to see how your mental conditioning affects your reaction time. [media]http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sleep/sheep/reaction_version5.swf[/media

Good point Warren. After watching the Shooting USA show air (in Dec. of 2010 I believe) I started looking into what I had to do to shoot the Cup. I had no clue. It took a lot of internet searching on my part to track down everything. Between the NRA's website and AP rulebook, this forum and even some youtube video's I was able to put it all together. It took a long time to figure some things about AP out, but I eventually got there. Even the little things like shooters have to be a member of the NRA, I didn't know that prior to my searches. Finding a range dedicated to AP shooting was my next challenge. I obviously knew about Green Valley, but had no idea about Pioneer Gun Club until locating it on the web. A dedicated AP website would have been a very nice tool to have had at my fingertips to answer some questions and help me get started. It could have the Ap rules, places to shoot with contact information, items needed to compete, etc., just something to think about. Doesn't the IDPA and USPSA have dedicated websites? I started off last years endeavor going in as cheaply as I could. I borrowed a 9mm gun to use in Metalic division and gathered sponsors for the rest of the items/ammo I needed. I can honestly say that I had under a hundred dollars of my own money wrapped up in shooting last years Cup. This is something new shooters should consider. After the Cup I decided to go all in since I was hooked and the amount of money I have put into the sport since then shows it. I have gathered sponsorship for the 2012 shooting season and have more this year than last, it can be done. I have yet to be able to catch a single episode of Doug Koenigs Championship Season, I am never able to catch it on, or the direct tv listing shows that will be the next show, then something else comes on instead. I haven't seen the Friends of the NRA show in a while either, again timing I guess. Unfortunately "guns" and the shooting sports seem to be a hard sell for major networks. Look at how little coverage shooting sports during the Olypmics receive for instance. So selling the idea may be a tough sell, I don't know. Lenny McGill was the host of the old episodes of the ESPN coverage. He also produced Doug's DVD Shooting Clean My Way. He might be a good place to start as a contact for a network? I guess we are very fortunate to have Versus and the Outdoor Channel. Even so, most of their shows are hunting or fishing shows. I'm not knocking that, I love to watch those too.

Let me start off by saying I'm new at this sport. 2011 was my first year to shoot it, even though I only live 90 miles from Columbia and have thought about doing this for years. It seems to me that media coverage needs to be better addressed. ESPN used to cover the Bianchi Cup and from some of the old clips I've seen did a good job of it too. I don't know why they pulled out, but getting them back onboard to cover the event would be a good thing. Yes, I know Shooting USA does a segment each year (only one?) and Michael Bane was there for Shooting Gallery (although I haven't seen his segment air yet, maybe I missed it). As it has been mentioned, coverage in magazines is pretty limited too. This will probably get me in hot water for saying it, but when the coverage is of the same people all the time maybe that gets old, maybe that intimidates potential new shooters from getting in? Having said that let me say I have the greatest respect for the class winners and think they should recieve their kudos, they have earned it, I'm not saying not to cover their accomplishment. Why not show some new shooters out there shooting and having fun, interview them and find out why they got interested and let them tell how much fun they are having shooting the sport. Focus on the new and young shooters that are out there too. I remember watching Shooting USA in 2010, they did coverage of the Bianchi Cup and had a short interview with a man from Va. (he was a professor if I recall correctly) he was new to the sport and said that shooting AP was better than any round of golf he had ever played. Things like that are positive and show that a "regular Joe" can get out there and give this sport a try. That was the push I needed to get involved and shoot AP at 49 years old. The NRA's coverage of AP is very limited in their magazines, that I would think could be an easy fix if they wanted to address the issue themselves. As others have said, this is a tough and challenging shooting sport, not to mention expensive. Look at how much you spend on a match. Ammo alone has become an issue. The prolonged war overseas raised the cost of ammo over the last 10 years, thats just a fact. When you factor in practice prior to the match, the cost of travel (gas prices are projected to soar this spring), lodging, food, equipment (ie ammo, gun, holster, belt), etc..... All this can deter many would be shooters from this sport. I can travel 90 miles and be in either Columbia or Kansas City to shoot, relatively close, but still fuel costs add up when you only get 15 miles per gallon. Lets face it, the economy is in the tank right now and that in itself is going to keep many potential new shooters away, thats just a fact. As a way to cut ammo costs I just purchased a Kimber .22 conversion for my 1911. It cost me $250 and I'll still have to pick up a few more mags to make a match, but it's cheaper than banging away 200 rounds of centerfire ammo every time I go out. I plan on shooting in the Metalic class (or according to Jeromy would it still be Production?) with it some this year. Maybe not at a major match, but at least I'll get out and keep on shooting. My 12 year old son is going to shoot some matches with it too. Why can't the NRA make a smallbore AP event at the Bianchi Cup? Steel challenge has a lot of shooters in their .22 classes. From what I've heard last years Cup brought in an impressive number of shooters. We need to realize that we are all ambassadors of the sport and try and bring in new members when we can. If you know of someone that might be interested take them to a weekend club match and let them get their feet wet. They may never do it on their own. My first trip to Columbia to shoot a weekend match was a bit nerve wracking not knowing what to do when I got there, let alone the shooting aspect. I've tried to get a couple of guys to go with me, they are to intimidated by the event. The short time limits can be daunting for some. I think I've got one convinced to give it a try though. It is what it is, AP is a challenging sport for a reason.

JS. I shot Action Pistol for the first time ever last year. I have never shot a more challenging pistol sport. This had been a goal of mine for a long time. That being said I'll just say I was no newcomer to shooting. I'll turn 50 just prior to the 2012 Cup and you can bet I'll be there again. Once you shoot Action Pistol it gets in your blood. This year (2011) I shot a borrowed Springfield Armory XDM 9mm in the metallic division. I choose the metallic divison for a couple of reasons. There are typically fewer shooters in the metallic division than either open or production. Also the gun I borrowed had a lightened trigger and would not meet the Production class rules standard. Last year at the Cup I believe there were 28 shooters in the metallic division. I finished 18th and was still in the money at the awards ceremony. The gun I shot didn't prove nearly accurate enough for this sport. Shortly after the Bianchi Cup I bought my own S&W model 64 revoler that had been done up as a PPC gun. I continued to shoot in the metallic division until the Region X match at Bates City MO. Since then I have had Warren (Tool Guy) upgrade my gun to an open gun. My main reason for moving up to open so quickly was one of eyesight. I wear bi focals and seeing the sights clearly was just becoming to much of an issue. In Action Pistol the time limits are so short you have to get on target quickly and accurately. A dot optic allows me to do that much easier now. Any gun you choose should shoot a group under 2 inches at 50 yards as a standard. You will meet and maybe even shoot with some of the big names of the sport at the Cup. I was squadded with Jerry Miculek and country western singer Mark Wills for the Pracitacal event at this years Cup. You didn't mention your past experience with shooting or competitions. I was a dyed in the wool auto fan until Action Pistol. I've used a 1911 and Glock for carry duty and competittions for the last 18 years. But I decided to shoot a revolver in Action Pistol for several reasons. First, you never shoot more than 6 shots in any given string of fire. A good K or L frame 6 or 7 shot revolver can be outfitted to shot this game pretty easy. Revolvers don't jam/fail to feed/fail to extract, etc. Revolvers are also cheaper to build. I won't weigh in on the accuracy aspect because most quality built auto's are going to be just as accurate as a good revolver. Proof of that is in a recent post by Kevin which shows an amazing group from his 1911 at 50 yards. But I will say that a revolver is typically not as finicky as an auto. Another nice thing about a revolver is dry fire practice. I can practice inside just about anytime I feel like it and when I do shoot outside I don't have to search for brass on the ground anymore. I shot over 4000 rounds of 9mm prior to the Cup last year in practice. I also used a Ruger MkI .22 to practice with and shot an additional 5000 rounds through it. I problaby won't be using a .22 for practice this year since switching over to an open gun. I simply don't have access to a .22 revolver with a dot on it. Just remember whatever caliber you choose to shoot with has to make power factor (120,000) and it should be managable enough for quick follow up shots. I can tell you that having a place to practice each of the 4 events is a key to success. I am lucky that I have a range with a falling plate rack and a mover. Instead of turning targets for the Practical and Barricade I use a timer as a start signal. A timer is a critical piece of equipment in my mind. Don't get to wrapped up in it at first though. What I mean by that is get comfortable shooting the different courses of fire before going under the clock for timed fire. Get a copy of the C.O.F. and learn it, be able to recite it by heart. That way when you go up to the line you don't even have to think about what you are going to do. I won't even get into the whole mental "thing" that comes with this sport. Thats a whole thread in itself. Suffice it to say that you have to have your head screwed on right when you step up to the line. Your main focus is the task at hand. If there is an action pistol club nearby get to know the shooters there. I live 90 miles the Green Valley Rifle and Pistol Club in Columbia and about the same distance from the Pioneer Gun Club in the K.C. area. I try to go to the practices whenever I can. Not only will you get some good quality practice in, you will get to meet some of the other shooters too. I have found that most shooters will be glad to give you some help or advice along the way. Ultimately the choice is yours as to what gun you choose to shoot and if you shoot open, metallic or production. You will see that most of the top A.P. shooters use an auto. Most of them also have a back up gun in case the first goes down for some reason. I poured over article after article on here during my spare time reading about the events and trying to prepare myself for the matches. Another piece of advice would be to print off a copy of the Action Pistol rules. There is quite a bit of useful information in it. You can get a copy of it from the NRA website. I ended up shooting 4 Action Pistol matches last year and one 3 gun event. I had a blast! If you have never shot Action Pistol before then you will start off as an Unclassified shooter. After the Cup you will recieve your classification card. I stayed at the Holiday Inn which is the official hotel for the Cup in Columbia. I only live 90 miles from Columbia, but stayed there for the Cup, regardless of the distance you need to get the whole Bianchi Cup experience. You will bump into all the top shooters and find that many are very friendly and easy to talk to. The NRA has a new shooters orientation the night before the match begins which you will want/need to attend. They had a BBQ one night and Mark Wills performed in Columbia one night also. For the awards ceremony you will need to bring a suite or sport coat at the bare minumum as it is a formal attire only event. I know I got off the topic of your original question, but I hope some of this helps. If you want my two cents worth of advice it would be get a gun, practice with it and come to the Cup in 2012. You won't regret it one bit, I know I didn't. And, just like me you can check off one more thing from your bucket list. John

Its never easy reading these. He was a hero. The proof of that is his numerous commendation. My condolences to his family during this trying time. Rest in peace brother. Job well done to his seasoned partner for catching the shooter.

Yeah, I think so. I'm going to give it one more year to see if I improve any farther. If not, time for the dark side. Be watching for you in January. Chris I was in Lee's Summit this last weekend. I drove out to the Brickyard range just to see where it is. I've got 4000 Zero bullets on order now, hopefully they will be here by March so I can start reloading and practicing for the Cup in April. Good luck in Metallic, I thought long and hard about what I should do and everything pointed to going the open route for me. John