Rob Tompkins
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Posts posted by Rob Tompkins
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We are only 15 days out from the match and we look forward to seeing everyone there. I wanted to let everyone know that there will be food on site for purchase each day for breakfast and lunch. The stages should be fun and challenging throughout the match. We have some really nice items on the prize table thanks to our great sponsors that are supporting the match. They have really stepped up big time for this event. We will have a couple side matches going on for those of you that want to shoot a little more and have a good time.
There will be a zero range available for your use throughout the duration of the match. We will also have some vendors that are planning to set up tables with some of their product on display so please be sure to swing by and check out what they have as well as thank them for their continued support with sponsoring all the great matches and ours.
If you have any questions regarding stage description, rules, sponsors etc. please head over to the match website www.tfd3g.com
We look forward to seeing everyone in a couple weeks.
Mike/Andy
Thanks. I'm really looking forward to this match. It's my first BIG 3-gun. I've shot a lot of small / local 3-gun and many major IDPA and USPSA pistol matches but nothing like this. :-)
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I have had my lifter welded by C-RUMS and Jeff does a fantastic job. Myself and others have had no issues with his lifters, so send with confidence!.
For the charging handle, I would leave the stock steel unit in place. I have seen one guy break 2 of the others and Nordic finally sent him the same handle that is on the Tacticals.
I also run the 3Gun Gear 2 shell holder on the fore end and it works well for when you suddenly run dry and need a shot or two to finish out a stage.
Yes, you should be able to use the stock spring with a +2 extension.
Mick
+1
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I went to buy a set of these chokes. I noticed they dont have the skeet in stock, so I will hold off till it comes back in to buy a whole set. But knowing my luck one of the other chokes will be out of stock by then.
IMHO there is so little difference between a skeet choke and an IC that for 3-gun you don't need the skeet choke. I'd say 99% of the time IC or LM will be the one you need.
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Wow, I did not expect the responses to be this lopsided! But, you've all pretty much convinced me. Thanks for all of your advice, I'll get on triple checking my gear to make sure it's all 100% within the rules, but can't think of any reason why any of it wouldn't be. Thanks again!
Good call. Be safe, listen to the RO's and ask to not be one of the first few shooters. Watch how other shooters in you Division shoot each stage and learn.
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I've been pondering this myself lately. I'm reluctant to switch to an L2/4 system as I've got so much time with the weak hand and am relatively comfortable with it, not to mention the extra gear cost. I think the answer is still "whichever works best for you". If standing in my basement with a shot timer, and camera while loading my shotgun were a contest, the L4 wins hands down. In a match with movement, changing ammo types, etc, I think it's still the indian over the arrow at this point.
Dave is right. I've used both and my belt is set up for both. Both have strengths and weaknesses and are the "best" under different conditions.
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I ended up in the Days Inn about 25 miles to the north in Cuthbert.
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I have several CA products, all good stuff but I don't have the one peice VM tube. Before the one piece tubes came out I got a +2 end cap from another vendor so I could have 10+1 capacity. I also find I need to limit total capacity to 8+1 for specific matches.
However, instead of putting the original end cap back on, I've fabricated a coil over plug that looks a bit like a 1911 recoil spring guide rod. This limits capacity to 8+1 but keeps the 10+1 spring length. As a result when loading the 8th round into the tube the spring is not fully (or nearly so) compressed and the effort to load the 8th round is not significantly different from the first few.
For those shooters needing to limit capacity, have you considered a coil over style plug? This could easily be fabricated by CA.
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In the summer time you almost have to drink a 16oz+ bottle of water EVERY stage to even stay close to maintaining hydration. Even then you're not really keeping up, just falling behind slower.
A 10 stage major match in the summer (or even a 6 stage club match) is as much a test of endurance as it is shooting skill.
Oh yea, als you need sunscreen as well. Once you start feeling the sunburn you going to drop off - it will affect you whole attatude. Once you get to the point you just want it to be done, you're pretty well out of the running.
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Assuming that you are getting your hits, it didn't look too bad to me as far as technique goes. You do bring the gun down way too low on your reloads. Overall, you just don't seem to be moving as if time is important to you. Best I can tell, the overall stage took you about 16 seconds. You were over 2 seconds from buzzer to first shot, over 4 seconds on your reload and about 2 seconds transitioning to the other side of the barricade. That is more than 8 seconds. Half of your total stage time was spent not shooting. You could cut those times in half if you practice moving while not actually shooting with some more snap and authority. Dry fire and work on draw times, reloads and transition from target to target.
Just my .02
Pretty much what I saw as well. You had the gun up an aimed but took ~1/2 sec to fire on your draw and reload. Keep the gun up higher and you'll save time getting back on tgt after the reload. I don't know how tight the shoots were were but you had pretty slow splits on a couple tgts.
Your stance and grip (what I could see) looked good, you seemed very stable and gun was well controlled.
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I run a 20" Lija heavy stainless w/ Wylde chamber.
Most of the cool kids seem to be running 18" mid length or rifle length gas systems, low profile gas blocks and really long tubes.
Barrel length does impact bullet velocity, very important for longer range targets. Close in, meh. The rest is what you like.
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Yeah, one of my biggest complaints about IDPA, no stage points! I get it, its an accuracy based game but by not having stage points you don't get a good picture of who the best shooter is. For example, top shooter has a type three malfunction, there goes their match. This is not meant to start a debate, I do not care. I don't need your tactical resume brought up or the real purpose behind IDPA debate. I'm only saying that because there are a lot people on this forum that are emotionally attached to IDPA for some reason. I'm just agreeing with the original poster. Have a bad stage and your match is over, bummer.
Stage points or not, screw up a stage bad enough and you're out of the running.
Time plus (IDPA scoring) is easy to do and simple to follow hence its popularity. You hear the time and points and you know how you did, period, end of story. Stage popints, not so simple.
To the OP: It has happened to anyone who's shot more than a few matches. Good hydration and nutrition during the match is very important, even necessary but its not sufficent. Mental prep and concentration is also needed.
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I read most of the post in this thread and looked at the match web page. So I hope this has not been gone over .
Will this be like Blue Ridge and require slings for the shotgun and rifle ?
I have it on good authority that Vortex Optics will be on the sponsors list soon 
I found that there are two stages that start with a slung shotgun a most of the rest start with slung rifle. Its down in the stage descriptions.
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If your mags are >10 rnd capacity that is the only practical way to do it.
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Ranging on the clock is not practical, so don't use that as a criteria. In our game, gimme a BDC every time.
Thanks, good point. Related thought is with a 25/250 yard zero I'll be +/- ~2" drop & rise variation out to ~275yards so holdover is only a real issue at 300+ yards.
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My current 3-gun sight / scope combo is JPSRTS and a 2-7x Nikon with duplex reticle. I'm not concerned with getting a real low power (~1x) range with the JPSRTS so I’m considering switching to either a Nikon M-223 3-12x w/BDC or an MTAC 3.5-10x w/ MilDots. Similar prices and both have lots of good user reviews.
Most of my 3-gunning is local with rifle shots under 150 yards so the duplex has been just fine. However, I'm looking to shoot a major 3-gun match or two this year and for the next few and feel I need something better than the duplex reticle to help with the 400-500 yard targets.
How I see it:
BDC: Pro's-clear and uncluttered, faster holdovers if you know ranges and have calculated range values for the dots. Con's-not as useful to estimate range, or windage hold-offs, need to calculate dot ranges for each load
MilDot: Pros-good range estimation capabilities, easy to hold-off for windage. Con's-need to keep (or learn) a range-bullet drop table for each load close at hand
As far as I can tell, both reticles are good and useful but different. Does the forum collective find one reticle better than the other for 3-gun games?
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I would refer you to page 44 of the current rule book: http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/qy4k0see.2om.pdf(snip)
I do not believe I should have been penalized and was not.
Independent of Tac Reload or RWR the mag has to be stowed before the reload is complete. If you left cover with the mag in your hand it’s a PE, your reload was not complete as the mag was not stowed per the definition of RWR and Tac Reload on page 44.
IMHO, if you did not even attempt to catch the mag with your free hand I do not see how it can be realistically called a RWR / Tac Reload with a dropped mag. That was an intentional speed load, not an attempted but failed RWR. Is that a subjective opinion? Maybe. However, as the SO can't read you're mind and intent can't be proved it is an opinion only. As long as you stowed the mag before you left cover (or fired last shot if that was the last cover position) you are legal.
I retract my statement about not properly stowing the mag before the first shot after the reload. As shown previously and clearly stated in the rule book that is not a PE.
But as you describe your actions you did not complete the RWR / Tac Reload before you left cover, its a pretty clear PE as I read the rules. You might argue that Appendix 3, page 46 only requires you to have the mag seated and slide forward to leave cover, but that same section also says the reload must be complete to leave cover. That brings us back to page 44 and how RWR / Tac Reloads are defined.
If you can identify something else that shows it is legal please do.
Which goes back to what GTO told me when I asked him why he was not shooting IDPA any more: "The interpretation of the rules vary according to whom is holding the clock" (in essence - not the actual quote).
And that is the issue with this game. Maybe the issue is not with the rules but with how they are written.
Since the "D" stands for "Defensive", what are we looking at here. The strict interpretation of a rule book with somewhat poorly written rules or the application of the "Defensive" concept above all?
In a real life engagement taking the time to stow away your partly used magazine before picking up a full one is a proven bad idea (don't make me paste links).
No doubt the IDPA rule book leaves a lot to be desired in terms of clarity and consistancy. I can only presume that is why its taken 18 months for a rewrite. Many requestes for claification were defered for the new rule book.
Not to be rude and my applogies if it offends you but invoking the "Defensive" aspect of IDPA as rationale for circumventing a clearly written rule of a GAME is rather lame.
Your assessment that IDPA "tactics" are not good tactics to follow in real life is correct. But it's a GAME with RULES, not a practice / training ground for whatever you think are good real life tactics.
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Every reload is complete when the slide is forward or the cylinder is closed with a round in the chamber. The mag does not have to be stowed before leaving a position of cover. Se page 45
True for a slide lock reload but makes no sense in the context of a RWR or Tac Reload. The chamber is never empty and the slide is always forward so by that definition you're always done with the reload and by extension you could do a RWR or Tac Relaod in the open because you reload is always complete - done before you start.
Plesae note that same page says the "reload must be complete" and RWR and Tac Reloads are not complete until the mag is stowed per page 44.
I'm sure the new rule book will address this more explicitly.
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Example of this as a tactic:
While shooting over a barrel, with more shots left than ammo in the magazine, I dropped the non-empty magazine without putting it in retention and reloaded a fresh magazine quicker than if I had done a regular retention. At that point the magazine was laying on top of the barrel.
I then engaged the remaining targets from behind the barrel and, as I started to run towards the next position, I grabbed the dropped magazine from the top of the barrel with my support hand. By the time I was in concealment behind the last barrier, the magazine was in my pocket, my support hand wrapped around my strong hand, ready to shoot.
I took advantage of the fact that the magazine would land on the barrel to save time, since it would hit the ground and that it would be at hip level.
No, there is no gaming in IDPA.
This should have earned you a PE since you performed a "speed reload" and did not stow the magazine before the next round was fired.
Agree. At best it was a RWR where the first shot after the reload was fired prior to stowing the mag. Some might even argue the shooter left cover BEFORE the reload was complete and deserved another PE or even it was an intentional action to circumvent the rules and would warrent an FTDR.
Well, I was not penalized.
In the spirit of a real life engagement (hoping never to be in one), it would make sense.
I do not believe I should have been penalized and was not.
I would refer you to page 44 of the current rule book: http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/qy4k0see.2om.pdf
Independent of Tac Reload or RWR the mag has to be stowed before the reload is complete. If you left cover with the mag in your hand it’s a PE, your reload was not complete as the mag was not stowed per the definition of RWR and Tac Reload on page 44.
IMHO, if you did not even attempt to catch the mag with your free hand I do not see how it can be realistically called a RWR / Tac Reload with a dropped mag. That was an intentional speed load, not an attempted but failed RWR. Is that a subjective opinion? Maybe. However, as the SO can't read you're mind and intent can't be proved it is an opinion only. As long as you stowed the mag before you left cover (or fired last shot if that was the last cover position) you are legal.
I retract my statement about not properly stowing the mag before the first shot after the reload. As shown previously and clearly stated in the rule book that is not a PE.
But as you describe your actions you did not complete the RWR / Tac Reload before you left cover, its a pretty clear PE as I read the rules. You might argue that Appendix 3, page 46 only requires you to have the mag seated and slide forward to leave cover, but that same section also says the reload must be complete to leave cover. That brings us back to page 44 and how RWR / Tac Reloads are defined.
If you can identify something else that shows it is legal please do.
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Seems to apply to this thread... Need to settle a dispute on this rule please.
Shooter is in the process of reloading and while pulling out the front mag, the lip of the rear reload mag is caught and the rear reload mag falls to the ground. Shooter keep control of the front mag he grapsed. The shooter finishes the reload, picks up the other mag off the ground, then proceeds to finish the COF.
Even though the back mag was "dislodged" it was done so during the act of a reload. No..it was not "dropped" by the shooter.
PE or not?
Always a PE.
Look at Appendix E, Section 4:
1. A three (3) second procedural penalty will be assessed any time
a loaded ammunition feeding device (magazine, speedloader or full
moon clip) is dislodged and falls out of the carrier during a course
of fire. Dropping a loaded ammunition feeding device during a
reload is not a procedural as long as the competitor
does not leaveammunition behindretrieves and properly stows the device beforethe last shot of the string is fired. The prior sentence does not
include devices dislodged from a carrier which ALWAYS receives a
PE.
Link to updated rules: http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/qy4k0see.2om.pdf
Just wanted to point out johnmac posted this rule in Post #2.
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Seems to apply to this thread... Need to settle a dispute on this rule please.
Shooter is in the process of reloading and while pulling out the front mag, the lip of the rear reload mag is caught and the rear reload mag falls to the ground. Shooter keep control of the front mag he grapsed. The shooter finishes the reload, picks up the other mag off the ground, then proceeds to finish the COF.
Even though the back mag was "dislodged" it was done so during the act of a reload. No..it was not "dropped" by the shooter.
PE or not?
Always a PE.
Look at Appendix E, Section 4:
1. A three (3) second procedural penalty will be assessed any time
a loaded ammunition feeding device (magazine, speedloader or full
moon clip) is dislodged and falls out of the carrier during a course
of fire. Dropping a loaded ammunition feeding device during a
reload is not a procedural as long as the competitor
does not leaveammunition behindretrieves and properly stows the device beforethe last shot of the string is fired. The prior sentence does not
include devices dislodged from a carrier which ALWAYS receives a
PE.
Link to updated rules: http://members.idpa.com/Content/Rules/qy4k0see.2om.pdf
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I would think any timer with a ear/head phone out put (like the CED 8000) coud be used to trigger a relay for a start signal of some kind.
I have no help on the remote start.
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I run a Nikon Pro Staff 3-7x32 and a JP short range rifle sight mounted at 45deg. I'll use the 2x at 15-20 yards if there is tight hard cover or NS tgts, else I run the irons out to about 20 yards or so.
The 7x comes in handy shooting mini-poppers hidden in grass at 100 yards.
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Get a $20 rain suit from Wal Mart. Wear waterproof boots, and a good warm coat under the rain coat. Stay dry. Dry = warm, and warm = fun & fast.
Good advice.
Also carry a LARGE heavy duty trash bag for your range bag. Put your range bag in the rash bag with the trash bag on its side. The big bag will allow you to reach in an get ammo, mags, whatever while keeping you range bag and gera dry. Also, if you have one or can get one carry a large golf or small beach umbrella. Even with a rain suit keeping rain off your face and hands between shooting will help you stay dry and warm overall.
EDIT: spelling / typos
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IMHO, the speed/hit ratio for IDPA is really close to the pace of shooting Production minor as opposed to shooting Limited Major.
I would only agree if you typicaly shoot COF's with an average HF of 2.0. In IDPA a point is always worth 0.5 sec, in USPSA a point is often worth much less than that. If the typical HF is ~5.0 than a point is only worth 0.2 sec (i.e., you only need to shoot 0.2 sec faster to make for the one less point. Looking at the effects of TWO shots (IDPA really hammers a pair of "3's", USPSA not so much) is even a stronger difference.
USPSA tends to favor speed over accuracy, to a point. A miss is in USPSA is a HUGE impact, 15 points worth so for a HF of 5.0 you need to shoot 3 sec faster, or a HF of 3.0 you need to shoot 5 sec faster. In IDPA a miss is always 2.5 sec.
I've seen many IDPA crossover shooters run a COF with all "A's" but still finish way, way down on the stage becase some came in gave up 10% fo the points but shot 20% less time. Same token, I've seen USPSA cross over shooters just SMOKE a COF with the fastest time by far but finsih way, way down becase of points and penalities.
Bottom line, IDPA scoring favors accuracy (execpt complete misses) more so than USPSA. However, if you shoot FAST and ACCURATE you do well in both.
I have it on good authority that Vortex Optics will be on the sponsors list soon 
Draft rule book is posted
in IDPA Shooting
Posted
Whenever you change a long standing set of rules every change will have someone unhappy about it. IMHO some of the attempts to clarify and eliminate ambiguity worked, many more created new or more ambiguity. It is interesting that the last time I looked there were over 1100 comments.
I just hope the Tiger Teams take the comments to heart and fix the ambiguity as well as provide good reasons for why requested changes (like 40 in CDP) were not made.