mreed911 Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 I learned something today. Short setup: local match, allows multiple registrations/guns (only one counts for match score), allows PCC. Stated rule was "you cannot come to the line to shoot PCC with your handgun on, that results in a DQ under 10.5.7." 10.5.7 specifically references only having one handgun. The PCC Rules Addendum, however, clearly state that PCC = Handgun for all intents and purposes, so my belief is this is correct interpretation and application of the rules. Interesting, though, because every other match I've shot that allows dual registration and PCC did NOT require shooters to leave their handgun behind (go to safe area, bag, etc.) before shooting their PCC "round." That probably means they've been doing it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 56 minutes ago, mreed911 said: I learned something today. Short setup: local match, allows multiple registrations/guns (only one counts for match score), allows PCC. Stated rule was "you cannot come to the line to shoot PCC with your handgun on, that results in a DQ under 10.5.7." 10.5.7 specifically references only having one handgun. The PCC Rules Addendum, however, clearly state that PCC = Handgun for all intents and purposes, so my belief is this is correct interpretation and application of the rules. Interesting, though, because every other match I've shot that allows dual registration and PCC did NOT require shooters to leave their handgun behind (go to safe area, bag, etc.) before shooting their PCC "round." That probably means they've been doing it wrong. Maybe splitting hairs but the rule actually says"10.5.7 Wearing or using more than one handgun at any point in time during a course of fire. " Since you are not "wearing" the PCC nor "using" both guns I don't think a DQ is justified. why not allow a holstered handgun while shooting PCC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted March 17, 2017 Author Share Posted March 17, 2017 31 minutes ago, Sarge said: Maybe splitting hairs but the rule actually says"10.5.7 Wearing or using more than one handgun at any point in time during a course of fire. " Since you are not "wearing" the PCC nor "using" both guns I don't think a DQ is justified. why not allow a holstered handgun while shooting PCC? You're wearing the handgun. That would mean you have two handguns on you while shooting PCC. Wearing one, using the other. I've been at plenty of matches that don't disallow it but found one that does and the rules back up their position (so I'll happily follow them and enforce them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandabooks Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 Everytime I shoot PCC I take off the handgun. I don't think I've seen anyone shoot while having their pistol on. I haven't asked about the rule but I figure that I want to take the weight off and I don't want to take the chance of dislodging my handgun with the PCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
js1130146 Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 30 minutes ago, mreed911 said: You're wearing the handgun. That would mean you have two handguns on you while shooting PCC. Wearing one, using the other. I've been at plenty of matches that don't disallow it but found one that does and the rules back up their position (so I'll happily follow them and enforce them). The rules don't back up their position. You aren't wearing more than one gun during the COF. And you aren't using more than one during the COF either. The rules have specific wording. It makes no mention of wearing one while using the other. So enforcing the rule strictly as written I don't see it being a DQ either. This is one of those things that needs to be rewritten more clearly for PCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 1 hour ago, mreed911 said: You're wearing the handgun. That would mean you have two handguns on you while shooting PCC. Wearing one, using the other. I've been at plenty of matches that don't disallow it but found one that does and the rules back up their position (so I'll happily follow them and enforce them). I think "or" makes all the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sarge said: I think "or" makes all the difference. Depends. I can see a logical construction as written of (wearing or using) (more than one) meaning doing either with more than one, e.g. wearing one while using the other. And, if the rule is explained as enforced that way at the beginning, meaning the RM and MD are going to enforce it that way, that's it until they're overridden by an arb committee or NROI/rules change. At first I thought "but a carbine isn't a handgun" but according to the PCC Rules Addendum, it is... so that blew my only argument out of the water. It does need a bit of cleanup, though. Edited March 18, 2017 by mreed911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Pretty easy ... just have the rules state that one cannot wear, carry, or use a second gun. Now the rule is clear, and PCC is just like everybody else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, js1130146 said: The rules don't back up their position. You aren't wearing more than one gun during the COF. And you aren't using more than one during the COF either. The rules have specific wording. It makes no mention of wearing one while using the other. So enforcing the rule strictly as written I don't see it being a DQ either. This is one of those things that needs to be rewritten more clearly for PCC. You can't have 2 guns on you in a USPSA Pistol Match, during a COF having a holstered pistol and using a PCC is having 2 guns on you. DNROI just sent out information on this. Why make special exceptions once again for PCC? PCC needs to follow the rules like everyone else. If shooting 2 divisions, bag the gun you are not using. Edited March 18, 2017 by bret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, bret said: You can't have 2 guns in a USPSA Pistol Match, having a holstered pistol and using a PCC is having 2 guns. DNROI just sent out information on this. Link? I don't see this in the rules beyond what we're discussing here and don't see a ruling posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
js1130146 Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, bret said: You can't have 2 guns in a USPSA Pistol Match, having a holstered pistol and using a PCC is having 2 guns. DNROI just sent out information on this. Why make special exceptions once again for PCC? PCC needs to follow the rules like everyone else. If shooting 2 divisions, bag the gun you are not using. I'm not arguing for allowing it. I'm just saying that the rules don't prohibit it. The wording of the rule doesn't say anything about "having" 2 guns. But it DOES specifically says you can't use or wear more than one in a COF. I can have as many guns with me during a USPSA match as I want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, mreed911 said: Link? I don't see this in the rules beyond what we're discussing here and don't see a ruling posted. http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/USPSA/PCCandCOQuestions.pdf Q: Can I wear a handgun and shoot my carbine at the same time? My club allows multiple entries, and I want to shoot PCC and a handgun division. A: No. At no time during a course of fire is a competitor allowed to have two guns on his person, whether one is held in the hands or not. This handgun rule applies across the board to handguns and PCCs. 5.1.9 is the rule that prohibits this, and 10.5.7 calls for a DQ if it happens. (Considered Unsafe Gun Handling Edited March 18, 2017 by bret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 9 minutes ago, js1130146 said: I'm not arguing for allowing it. I'm just saying that the rules don't prohibit it. The wording of the rule doesn't say anything about "having" 2 guns. But it DOES specifically says you can't use or wear more than one in a COF. I can have as many guns with me during a USPSA match as I want to. You can't have 2 guns on you during the course of fire, if you are shooting PCC and have a holstered pistol, you have 2 guns on you. You can have as many guns as you want at a match, just not more than 1 on you during the COF in USPSA Pistol Matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
js1130146 Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, bret said: You can't have 2 guns on you during the course of fire, if you are shooting PCC and have a holstered pistol, you have 2 guns on you. You can have as many guns as you want at a match, just not more than 1 on you during the COF in USPSA Pistol Matches. I understand that. Just like I understand the interpretation of the rule by DNROI. Both you and the provided ruling use the phrase "have two guns". BUT that's not what the actual wording of the rule says, That phrase is no where in the rule book. I have nothing against the intent of the rule, just how it's worded. It should be fixed to be more clear. Rules shouldn't have to be interpreted, They should be written clearly and enforced as written so there is no doubt about what the rule means/intends. Semantics and grammar, even if they seem trivial points, are important ESPECIALLY in rules/law. Edited March 18, 2017 by js1130146 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 1 minute ago, js1130146 said: I understand that. Just like I understand the interpretation of the rule by DNROI. Both you and the provided ruling use the phrase "have two guns". BUT that's not what the actual wording of the rule says, That phrase is no where in the rule book. I have nothing against the intent of the rule, just how it's worded. It should be fixed to be more clear. Rules shouldn't have to be interpreted, They should be written clearly and enforced as written so there is no doubt about what the rule means/intends. How much clearer does it have to be? 10.5.7 Wearing or using more than one handgun at any point in time during a course of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 5 minutes ago, js1130146 said: I understand that. Just like I understand the interpretation of the rule by DNROI. Both you and the provided ruling use the phrase "have two guns". BUT that's not what the actual wording of the rule says, That phrase is no where in the rule book. I have nothing against the intent of the rule, just how it's worded. It should be fixed to be more clear. Rules shouldn't have to be interpreted, They should be written clearly and enforced as written so there is no doubt about what the rule means/intends. Semantics and grammar, even if they seem trivial points, are important ESPECIALLY in rules/law. From DNROI, the link is a couple of posts up. Q: Can I wear a handgun and shoot my carbine at the same time? My club allows multiple entries, and I want to shoot PCC and a handgun division. A: No. At no time during a course of fire is a competitor allowed to have two guns on his person, whether one is held in the hands or not. This handgun rule applies across the board to handguns and PCCs. 5.1.9 is the rule that prohibits this, and 10.5.7 calls for a DQ if it happens. (Considered Unsafe Gun Handling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, bret said: From DNROI, the link is a couple of posts up. 35 minutes ago, bret said: http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/USPSA/PCCandCOQuestions.pdf That document has no source information. I won't say I doubt its veracity but were I RO'ing a match I wouldn't take it into consideration since it has no source. Edit: I see it's from Down Range but there's no author information and nothing is listed under NROI rulings. Edited March 18, 2017 by mreed911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Just now, mreed911 said: That document has no source information. I won't say I doubt its veracity but were I RO'ing a match I wouldn't take it into consideration since it has no source. The Source is USPSA Facebook page.http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/USPSA/PCCandCOQuestions.pdf Even without the above document, what don't you understand about rule 10.5.7? It is very clear, if a competitor has handgun on during a COF while using a PCC, it is a D.Q. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
js1130146 Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Again, I'm not arguing against the rule. And I'm not arguing against the interpretation. I'm just saying that the wording of the rule is poor and could be revised. This seems like a lost cause, I'm over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Just now, js1130146 said: Again, I'm not arguing against the rule. And I'm not arguing against the interpretation. I'm just saying that the wording of the rule is poor and could be revised. This seems like a lost cause, I'm over it. Here is the rule, how can it be any clearer?0.5.7 Wearing or using more than one handgun at any point in time during a course of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 1 minute ago, bret said: The Source is USPSA Facebook page.http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/USPSA/PCCandCOQuestions.pdf Even without the above document, what don't you understand about rule 10.5.7? It is very clear, if a competitor has handgun on during a COF while using a PCC, it is a D.Q. Doesn't look like uspsa.org to me. Looks like multibriefs.com, a news aggregation service. Past that, I take it you haven't read my posts in this thread. I'm not arguing it's not a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 1 minute ago, bret said: Here is the rule, how can it be any clearer?0.5.7 Wearing or using more than one handgun at any point in time during a course of fire. As argued earlier (not that I agree) - I'm wearing ONE and using ONE, so I'm not doing EITHER with MORE THAN ONE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Just now, mreed911 said: Doesn't look like uspsa.org to me. Looks like multibriefs.com, a news aggregation service. Past that, I take it you haven't read my posts in this thread. I'm not arguing it's not a DQ. Go to USPSA Facebook page and look it up yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Just now, mreed911 said: As argued earlier (not that I agree) - I'm wearing ONE and using ONE, so I'm not doing EITHER with MORE THAN ONE. If you are wearing a pistol and using a PCC, you are violating rule 10.5.7 Since PCC is following the same rules as Pistol, it would be the same as having more than 1 handgun during the course of fire. Send DNROI an email for clarification if you need it, argue with Troy about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 8 minutes ago, bret said: Go to USPSA Facebook page and look it up yourself. I don't have Facebook. USPSA, however, has a website. That's not it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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