Hornady LNL AP sizing issue

[lvipscshooter]

I am having issue with my new Lock N Load AP. I cannot get it to consistently size my 38 super rounds to save my life. I am using Lee dies that were mounted and worked perfectly in my Lee turret press. I want the round to be 1.256. I am getting rounds anywhere from 1.245 to 1.278 without adjusting anything. My seating die is not loose and I am using the Lee die lock rings.

WTF?????

I am losing my mind on this one. I just can't figure out why it isn't working. I'm ready to return the press!

Please help!!! and please don't answer I should have bought a 650

Edited January 14, 2010 by lvipscshooter

[Hairtrigger]

any chance the sizing die is set so the press does not make a full stroke? Try removing the sizing die and just seat a few bullets if there is any doubt

I believe there is something keeping you from making a complete ram stroke, also check that you are not bottoming out the powder measure

Edited January 14, 2010 by Hairtrigger

[Mush from PA.]

I am new to the L-N-L and my first attempt was 223 using Hornady dies - no problems. Next I went to the 9mm using Lee dies I have used for two years with no problem in my Redding Turret press. In the L-N-L I did not adjust the dies down enough and was not getting a full sizing. The lee dies are much shorter than the Hornady dies. Make sure you have them all the way down and are getting the "over the center" pop in the handle with out any other slots used. next add one station at a time and ensure you are not bottoming out on any thing. Also the bolt holding down the shell plate can come loose. Make sure it is not flopping the shell plate around.

Edit, are you talking about the length of the case?? You may need to trim the case length if you are picking up range brass.....

Edited January 15, 2010 by Mush from PA.

[Hairtrigger]

Could be a shell plate that is too loose but I would expect to find the issue elsewhere

[DWFAN]

Not sure if this may be your issue, but if you dont set the OAL with all the cases in the plate, it will be different. Just remembered that the hard way tonight. Set it to 1.135 with only 1 shell in, loaded 100 rounds and they all came out 1.15+ d'oh!

What lee dies are you using, the 4 die set? Sometimes the FCD will act up and cause me some oal issues. Dont know why or how (squeezing the bullet longer probably, or set to tight and pushing bullet lower) but it comes out a different size than it did from the seating die.

[lvipscshooter]

Not sure if this may be your issue, but if you dont set the OAL with all the cases in the plate, it will be different. Just remembered that the hard way tonight. Set it to 1.135 with only 1 shell in, loaded 100 rounds and they all came out 1.15+ d'oh!

What lee dies are you using, the 4 die set? Sometimes the FCD will act up and cause me some oal issues. Dont know why or how (squeezing the bullet longer probably, or set to tight and pushing bullet lower) but it comes out a different size than it did from the seating die.

Seems like all the above have been the issue, and I am using the Lee 4 die set. This is the odd thing though. I will set it to 1.256 OAL, I'll run some rounds, and get anywhere from 1.245 to 1.263. I starting to think my Lee seating die has had it or the the crimp die, or both! This is getting very frustrating!!! If I run the completed rounds back through the seating and crimp dies, I get the size I am after or maybe a little shorter.

[lvipscshooter]

Could be a shell plate that is too loose but I would expect to find the issue elsewhere

Checked the shell plate. It is correctly installed with no looseness

[smallshot13]

I have found that the greatest variations in OAL come from two factors: 1) as mention previously, there is a difference when the pressure of the sizing die opposite (216 degrees) is not present, there is just enough flex in the base plate to cause the OAL to be shorter, 2) consistency of stroke, yes, operator induced. Practice taught me to be cognizant of the pressure at the bottom of the stroke, making that as consistent as is practical. Loading pistol rounds may be different than your condition, so this is only my experience. I get lots of practice, as pistol punks shoot more rounds. I actually have thought about mounting a mechanical pressure guage to check consistency, but that might be overkill.

[Hairtrigger]

I see you are in Vegas.

Hornady will have their best people at the SHOT show next week

[DWFAN]

Same brand of brass ? I get some variation but about half of what you're seeing. Probably .08ish, but Im using mixed brass and dont have a 100% solid working bench. So I'll have to live with some variance for now.

Have you tried backing out the FCD any ?

Do you use case lube to smoothen out the process ?

[lugnut]

I have found that the greatest variations in OAL come from two factors: 1) as mention previously, there is a difference when the pressure of the sizing die opposite (216 degrees) is not present, there is just enough flex in the base plate to cause the OAL to be shorter, 2) consistency of stroke, yes, operator induced. Practice taught me to be cognizant of the pressure at the bottom of the stroke, making that as consistent as is practical. Loading pistol rounds may be different than your condition, so this is only my experience. I get lots of practice, as pistol punks shoot more rounds. I actually have thought about mounting a mechanical pressure guage to check consistency, but that might be overkill.

What he said.... as long as you have everything set up correctly.

[CocoBolo]

#1 - You need all stations with brass in them to set the length, when there is no brass under the sizing die your rounds will shrink about .01-.015. Only those rounds run with all stations full will be consistent lenght all others will be short, unless you short stroke it.

#2 The biggest issue with the fcd is having the die body screwed in too far this lets the rim of the die hit the brass instead of the crimp sleeve.

#3 I think that the Lee instructions say to screw the sizing die down till it touches the shell plate then go another 1/4 turn. I only run mine down till it contacts.

#4 The lee seating die if I recall correctly can also cause issue when screwed in too far. If I recall correctly I would screw it in with a case in the station till it contacted then back it off one round, then set the OAL with the stem adjustment. Also check up in there and make sure it is clean and has no burr's where the head of the bullet fits in the insert. If you are using a cupped insert and its not working try a flat insert.

#5 Indexing - On my LNL when it is indexed perfectly it runs perfectly and things are as they should be if it is not indexing properly then adjust it. It is a lot easier than you think, just adjust the side that is out of whack 1/4 turn at a time till you get it right and keep track of where you started, so worst case you can get back to where you started.

#6 Shell plate, need a little grease on the detent balls, then screw it in untill is is just barley snug. Mine has a washer if I can turn the washer it is not snug. Too tight and it binds.

#7 Keep a parts brush handy, if powder gets on the shell plate clean it off immediately. If you don't it gets in the primer slide and in the primer punch and you have to stop and clean them.

These same things apply to the XL650, I have both, they are both top of the line loaders. The Hornady powder measure is a lot better than the Dillon measure. The Hornady is a lot simplier to adjust and maintain. If you have not broken the primer slide and the plastic piece that adjusts it you will, so you might as well call now and get a replacment. I have broken two in 30K rounds, and 3 of the shell plate retaining springs. I bought the Dillon small parts kit and everything I have broken has not been in the kit, go figure.

[lvipscshooter]

I really appreciate everyone's help on this issue. I am going to attribute it to a worn out insert in my seating die that is "slopping" around inside the die body. I removed all of the 38 Super stuff and ran 9mm luger tonight. Ran an OAL of 1.135 with the same set-up as the super, - the Hornady powder drop. (I used my Lee Pro Auto Disk and powder thru expander die). 200 Rounds perfect as can be! I had to make a 1/2 turn adjustment on the R.H. pawl as it wasn't indexing enough, but that is it. I have a set of Dillon dies on the way to replace the lee seating and crimp dies. Hopefully all will be well, the planets, moon and sun will align and I will be able to produce perfect 38 Super ammo

Thanks again everyone who helped me!!!

[Hairtrigger]

I e! I had to make a 1/2 turn adjustment on the R.H. pawl as it wasn't indexing enough, but that is it.

Last week I spent time on the phone with Hornady and ended up talking to the guy over the assembly / repair dept.

Basically I have gotten my Projector to the point of needing a rebuild. This guy had all the part numbers at the tip of his tongue. He told me those indexing pawls need very small adjustments, when I told him I tried a 1/4 turn on that little set screw he told me 1/16 or 1/8 turns.

Just a word of caution because part of my problem is I went too far and the tips of the pawls are flattened.

Very typical of Hornady... all parts sent at no charge

[CocoBolo]

There is an old saying

If brute force is not working, you are just not using enough.

When it comes to reloading, never use brute force it will break something. I will admit a 1/4 turn is a lot of adjustment, I just put that as a start point. It does need fine adjustment. Mine got so far out that when I was trying to set the powder measure with just one case in the press the powder just went on the shell plate. That is when I decided to man up and adjust it, before that the fear of messing it up held me back.

In 38 Super I found that the powder thru die breaks a lot of brass, but at the time I decided that my indexing was less than perfect. But now that I have it set with a Hornady Expander I am way too happy to keep it that way.

If your going to use the Dillon sizing die, get some spare decapping pins, you will break a few. It is almost impossible to break a lee decapping pin, almost.

I don't know what the manual says about it, but I had this rough drag on mine I could't figure out. After a while I put a little grease on the spent brass tube and it is nice and smooth now.

[Mush from PA.]

I found this on the net and did not write down the author's name, my humble apologies to the author but it is too good to not post, I hope the diagrams come out:

Sorry the diagrams did not show in the text but the read is worth the attempt....

------------------------------------------------------------------

I spent quite a long time figureing out how to adjust those darned pawls.

I came to a few conclusions. I should start a new thread but I'm just going to post here.

First of all, the directions in the manual are confusing. I made pictures cuz pictures are easier.

First picture:

What it shows is if you rotate the pawl screw LEFT (counterclockwise), the shell plate will rotate more RIGHT (clockwise).

Next picture:

What it shows is if you rotate the pawl screw RIGHT (clockwise), the shell plate will rotate more LEFT (counterclockwise).

Rule 1:

Left pawl adjusts the shell plate when it comes down. This is the one that causes problems with cases feeding into the shell plate or priming problems (they both rely on the the downstroke of the shell plate).

Rule 2:

Right pawl adjusts the shell plate when it goes up. This is the area that causes problems with cases entering the dies (jamming on the sizing die is the big problem child).

The rest:

Now, another key point to keep in mind about the clicks.. The manual says to listen for clicks as the shell plate is locked into place at the end of the press arm stroke. They don't explain it very well though. When I was first fighting the left pawl (shell plate problems with priming and case feeding), the manual said to listen for 2 clicks. They didn't explain that the clicks are VERY soft and I was mistaking the releasing of the RIGHT pawl being the first click when in reality, the proper click is a very soft one. The clicks are first the sound of the pawl releasing and the second click is the sound of the 2 ball bearings locking the shell plate into proper place.

The key about that is you want the adjust the pawls so that the 2 distinct clicks merge into one click, that means the pawl is releasing exactly at the same time as the ball bearings are locking into place. If you are thinking that the loud clicking is the proper noise, then you are wrong like I was.

And when adjusting these pawls, you need to move the press arm VERY slowly.

Oh well, I hope these instructions help someone else.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Mush from PA.

[Dodge DeBoulet]

Oh well, I hope these instructions help someone else.

Here's a link to the original post, with pictures.

[Mush from PA.]

Thanks Dodge, Much better to have the pictures...

[lvipscshooter]

Update to this topic. I added a Hornady seating die and replaced my taper crimp with new. All is well now with the press. i've shortened my loads to 1.235 OAL, and the press turns them out with a variance of about .003 across the board. My gun loves them and seems to run better too!!

[ben b.]

Update to this topic. I added a Hornady seating die and replaced my taper crimp with new. All is well now with the press. i've shortened my loads to 1.235 OAL, and the press turns them out with a variance of about .003 across the board. My gun loves them and seems to run better too!!

That sounds right. I use Lee/EGW U-dies for decap/resize, and Hornady dies for everything else. My OAL variance is +/-.002 for 95% of loads, and the remainder are +/- .003".