throw magazines on the ground

[dick seger]

Imagine a stage where you have to shoot under a barricade of about 20 cm over the range that is 4 meters wide.

So you have to roll over a few times to move to the next targets.

If you shoot single stack or revolver you have to reload a few times.

Is the shooter allowed, after the start signal, to throw a handful of magazines/clips from his belt on the ground so that he can reload while lying on the ground?

You can't reach them normally because you are lying on top of your belt and pouches while shooting.

Second, Are you allowed to do this before the startsignal?

[Jake Di Vita]

After the start signal (as far as I know) there is no rule stating you can't put mags or speedloaders on the ground.

I do know however that you can't put it on the ground before the start signal.

[Loves2Shoot]

I would just put them in my back pocket. It is technically a pouch.

[muser]

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Quote: from Loves2Shoot on 2:07 pm on Mar. 5, 2003

I would just put them in my back pocket. It is technically a pouch.

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5.3.5 says that it is illegal to move or change the position of the holster and its allied equipment during a competition. If it's technically a pouch, it's technically a change.

(Edited by muser at 3:23 pm on Mar. 5, 2003)

[Jake Di Vita]

Last time I checked you can't move or change the position of your back pocket?

[Loves2Shoot]

Muser,

I don't get your point? That isn't changing the holster position or its allied equipment . You could tuck them in your waist band or socks if you felt the need.

[muser]

The rule book says that I can't wear or use more than 1 gun during the competition. It doesn't restrict me from wearing more than 1 holster during a competition. If I saw that a stage would be better shot if my gun started in a holster position that was different than my usual position, should I be allowed to reposition my gun to the most advantageous holster for that particular stage, or would I be in violation of 5.3.5?

[Loves2Shoot]

ROFL, I hope you are not seriously considering wearing two holsters at one time. That is too weird for me. I know that any one draw would NOT be worth wearing 2 holsters for a match, but if you where to wear 2 holsters the entire match, the rulebook, as I read it, doesn't prohibit you from switching which one you place it. This in no way applies to the original question, as magazines are treated differently than guns, ie. you can drop a mag during a match, but not a gun.

[muser]

Why would you find the wearing of 2 holsters an inconceivable idea? If you can get a competative advantage out of it, why not?

My point doesn't go to the issue of dropping a mag on the ground after the start signal, but to the issue of repositioning your mags to a location that is different than the one you have been using during the match to gain a competative advantage (the back pocket).

I have no problem with someone placing their mags on the ground after the start signal.

What is the intent of 5.3.5? The reason for making shooters keep their holster and mag pouches in the same position is to make them keep their mags and gun in the same position. The wording in the rule provides the opportunity for the intent of the rule to be violated by only mentioning pouches and holster.

I guess I see the repositioning of the mags to the back pocket for a single stage as a violation of the intent of 5.3.5. JMO

[Loves2Shoot]

I respect you opinion of the intent of the rule, but I don't believe it is applicable to this situtation at all.

"I guess I see the repositioning of the mags to the back pocket for a single stage as a violation of the intent of 5.3.5. JMO"

5.3.5 Doesn't address where you place your magazines at all, only your holster and mag pouches. I don't even want to get into intent of rules, it brings back too many flashes of the Clinton era. I go by the letter of the rule when I have to make a call, not what I think the intention is.

BTW, I and many people I shoot with almost always carry a magazine in our back pockets, just in case.

[Jake Di Vita]

"I don't even want to get into intent of rules, it brings back too many flashes of the Clinton era."

Thank you!

I wait for the day when someone tells me I can't place a mag in my pocket. Heads will roll.

[dick seger]

Thanks

Now back to my original question please, I've seen just one answer that helps me.

The rest is about a holster where the rules are clear about that.

Do you have to start with all your mags/clips in your belt and wich rule is that, I can't find it.

[Loves2Shoot]

You can't find it because it doesn't exists. You can not pre-place them in a course of fire. They don't have to be in mag pouches, you can have them in your pockets. After the buzzer goes you can place them on the ground if you wish, not before

[muser]

You wouldn't get an arguement from me if you believe that 5.3.5 is poorly written, but what is the reason for restricting the repositioning of your mag pouches and holster if it wasn't intended to restrict the repositioning of your mags and handgun?

5.3.1 says that your gun will be securely holsterd at the start signal, unless another start position is required in the course description. There is no rule that specifically states that the mags must be in their pouches at the start signal, but your hands must be clear of your mags and gun at the start signal (8.2.3).

If you believe that 5.3.5 only addresses pouches, and not mags, then put them where ever you want. If no one objects, your fine. If someone lodges a challenge, I think you have a good chance of come out on top in an arbitration due to the wording of 5.3.5.

[vluc]

Where's Darth??

[BDH]

Don't know where Darth is, and unfortunately, I don't have a rulebook at work.

While this isn't a direct answer to the question.... one other thing to keep in mind is that some of this depends on the Stage Procedure. I've seen Stage Procedures call out that neither the gun nor the mags could be on the belt at the start (but specify where they were to be located), and I have seen Stage Procedures say something like (start position is laying in bed, under the blanket, gun facing downrange on top of the nightstand, and all magazines in the nightstand drawer). Obviously, in either of these situations, mags in the back pocket would be in violation of the Stage Procedure, and subject to a Procedural penalty if you pulled one out of you pocket mid way through a stage....

Assuming the Stage Procedure did not forbid it, I know of no reason why someone could not start with their mags in their pockets...

[Vince Pinto]

I'm baaaaacccckkkkk! Did you miss me?

Yes, you can store magazines in your pocket or in your shoe or under your hat provided you're not touching them prior to the start signal.

Yes, after the start signal, you can put your magazines on the ground or juggle them or do a double somersault with a pike and a half-twist provided you don't break any safety rules.

Yes, you can wear two or more holsters, however at a major match the position of your gun and mags will be recorded on the equipment sheet.

Hence if you're checked with your gun in "Holster A", then you can't use "Holster B" to retain your gun later.

Note that the term "allied equipment" in Rule 5.3.5 includes the gun, all mags and mag pouches.

[muser]

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Quote: from Vince Pinto on 11:24 pm on Mar. 11, 2003

Note that the term "allied equipment" in Rule 5.3.5 includes the gun, all mags and mag pouches.

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I thought that the term "allied equipment" refered to guns, mags, and pouches when I first read 5.3.4 and 5.3.5, but on closer examination 5.3 deals with Holsters And Other Competitor Equipment, while 5.2 deals with Handguns. Appendix A - Production Division, uses the term holster and "allied equipment" in its guidelines, followed by "(magazine pouches)". That would seem to suggest that the term "allied equipment" refers to mag pouches only, unless the term "allied equipment" has two meanings in the rule book.

(Edited by muser at 9:18 pm on Mar. 12, 2003)

[Vince Pinto]

Q: What piece of equipment is most closely "allied" to your holster?

A: Your gun.

Appendix A actually says other (not allied) equipment, however both words allude to the same thing (i.e. all your equipment).

[muser]

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Quote: from Vince Pinto on 10:03 pm on Mar. 12, 2003

Q: What piece of equipment is most closely "allied" to your holster?

A: Your gun.

Appendix A actually says

other

(not allied) equipment, however both words allude to the same thing (i.e.

all

your equipment).

---

Q: What piece of equipment is most closely "allied" to your holster?

A: Your gun.

I would say it is the mag pouches, holster, and belt, as referenced in 5.3.4. Section 5 is divided into different subjects. 5.2 is handguns. 5.3 is holsters and other competitor equipment (belts, mag pouches).

Appendix A actually says other (not allied) equipment, however both words allude to the same thing (i.e. all your equipment).

14th Edition 2001, pages 89 and 92, both the IPSC and the USPSA Appendix A - Production Division Guidelines use the term "allied equipment", not other.

Yes, you can wear two or more holsters, however at a major match the position of your gun and mags will be recorded on the equipment sheet.

Why are you recording the position of the mags if they can be stored in any position that you would like, depending on the stage to be shot?

At these major matches, are you actually recording the position of the gun, or the position of the holster? That difference, as insignificant as it may seem, is where I'm challenging the rules. The rule says holster, not gun. The intent of the rule may be gun. As the Italianstallion alluded to in an eartlier post, intent is not what we are guided by, but the actual words that are used.

(Edited by muser at 9:18 am on Mar. 13, 2003)

[SRT Driver]

I don't have my rulebook handy so I can't quote the rule. After the buzzer, "drop" the magazines on the ground for the mag pouch. You can pick up mags from the ground as long as it it done safely.