kgunz11 Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 I will say this as I close. There is a reason that over 50% of competitors at a major 3 gun match run the Meopta KDot and you only see 1 or 2 NF on other rifles and its not because of the price. Why is it you only see 1 or 2 if not because of the price? Are they not suitable for 3 gun competition? Is it because of weak illumination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 I'd say price first. Illumination second. Glass clarity is a non-factor (comparatively). Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 I agree Rich, I would think the price was the main factor, but Tod said it wasn't even a factor, so I wanted to know what it was then. This will help me better guide potential customers towards a purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 For the majority of competitors that are serious about the game.....price for good equipment is not so much a factor(especially on good glass) but I do think there are limits for some folks. There are plenty of guys running S&B Short Dots and more and more are running the Swaro Z6i's. On the NF...the reticle is poorly designed for 3 gun and the illumination is not visible in sunlight. The reticle is somewhat on the right track but has issues for what we do and if the reticle could be illuminated,it would mask some of the shortcomings. The glass is first rate and the price would not be bad if the issues above were addressed. Hell.....I would by a couple. The majority of stages that involve a rifle in 3 gun are inside 100 yards. A visibly lighted reticle increases the speed necessary to get the most points on the stage. So the reticle has to be geared towards fast engagement inside 100 yards and be precise enough for distance to 500. Preferrably with stadia marks. I also think price sometimes gives folks a false sense of quality and usability(I'm still trying to find the best words to describe what I just typed). This thread is a great example. The Meopta is a much more desirable scope for what we do(in 3 gun/multigun).....but the OP is drawn to the NF. Clarity of glass is equally comparable and it has a daylight visible reticle that when zeroed properly works great for reference to 500 yards and is extremely fast for the closest of targets. And the Meopta is half the price. It is made in the Czech Republic by an American owned company. Just not made in the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 Very well said Tod. Point taken. The price has nothing to do with it, the optic falls short of being competitive with other models as far as 3-gun competition scopes are concerned. Or that is what I get from what you wrote, and makes sense why more folks aren't using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 It may already exist, but what I'd like to see is great glass, a daytime visible dot, about 2 minutes, very thin ranging hash marks and turrets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian guy Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 Tod you hit the nail on the head. Much of the time we are shooting stages with targets inside 100 yards. At those distances true 1x with a well designed daylight illuminated reticle is the most important factor for me. My thinking is that I need a scope that excels for most of the shots we take (inside 100 yds) and is adequate for the minority of shots (150-500ish yards), so I shoot a Meopta Kdot. I have practiced with it and have holdovers using the reticle and the target itself out to 400-500ish yards. Optically is the Meopta as good as the Nightforce? In my opinion not quite (maybe 90% as good), but it is certainly good enough to allow me to see and accurately engage an 8" to 10" plate inside 500 yards. I have played with the Nightforce scope some (I believe it was mounted on DT1s AR10 at the time) optically it was very nice, but I didn't find that overall it worked well for me. It was fine on the targets 150-400, but for me at least, slower on the close stuff (lack of illumination and unsuitable reticle). I suppose you could dial for range (I think that's how Tod plays it with his Swaro) but I prefer to hold over and the NightForce doesn't have a reticle that lends itself to that. I like Nightforce scopes I just don't think this one really fits well in our game. Now... If Nightforce would include a 2ish MOA daylight illuminated dot in the reticle and some holdover hashes (mills or moa I don't care which). It would deserve another look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaymondMillbrae Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 (edited) Darn it, guys...yall are killing me!! Shoot!!! The revolver is sold, the money is in the bank, and I popped my head in here to ask one more question. But now my head is spinning after reading a few VERY IMPORTANT comments yall made. First of, let me back-track and say that the Swarovski Z6i is out of my price range. But SWFA did offer me the NON-ILLUMINATED Z6 for $1,295.00. (With free shipping), So I came here to ask if the Z6 was a better choice than the NightForce NXS. (Is the illumination THAT important to 3-gunners)? And I guess I got my answer...YUP...YESSER-EE...IT SHO IZ. The way I see it, the glass was the most important part to me. I am 43-years old, and my eyes are not what they used to be 1-year ago. (This is my very first year wearing glasses). Blah, Ka-Plooey!! On top of that, I never realized how important a good "daylight illuminated" reticle was for 3-gun CQB scenarios. ("CLOSE Quarter Battle"). I have been rethinking a few things, and I guess fine holdover reticle lines are no real use for a CQB scenario. When you "point and shoot," you use the illuminated circle/horseshoe/K-dot...and not the holdover lines. I have finally seen the light, and have come to the conclusion that t is much better to have a good, large, DAYLIGHT ILLUMINATED AREA, for rapid target acquisition...and NON-illuminated holdover lines for distances. You sold me on the Meopta K-Dot! Now I have a few extra shekels to purchase a few of my other goodies. Looking back on this thread, it is nice to see my thought progression towards my choice of a 3-gun scope. I had the means to purchase the cream of the crop. (Or close to it). But instead chose to get what I needed. In the end, money (for me) was not the total issue, because I ended-up going the cheaper route, but getting EXACTLY what I needed. And the most important thing? Now I know WHY I did it! Thanks folks. More later. In Christ: Raymond PS: Is there a newer version of the Meopta Meostar K-Dot that I should be aware of? Just want to make sure I get the newest version, if it exists. PSS: Does anyone know of a promo code for LaRue Tactical? Edited August 22, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 There are no dated versions of the Meopta. They have all been made the same. You can find them used for as little as $550 if you shop around on some of the different forums. They pop up on occasion here and on AR15.com but other than that its hard to beat the LaRue package price and you may still qualify for military discount. Not sure of your status. But other than LE/MIL discounts....there are no other promo codes. I'm glad that we were able to sway you from buying what you really didn't need for the sport. I'm positive you will be happy with the Meopta. As for the non illuminated version of the Z6......I think you would be happier with the Meoptas reticle over the extra 2x. Its rare that I use more than 3x on my Z6. But its one of those things like a 22 round STI mag. When you need it 6x.....its priceless. Now......let us help you spend the money you just saved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian guy Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Yep first purchase for the new kdot is a throw lever/cat tail so that you can flip it from 1x to 4x quickly. I can't find the threads right now but a bit of searching will lead you to 2 or 3 good threads that show the meopta reticle with the dimensions in moa at 4x. That plus some basic knowledge of the balistics of your load and some practice will get you going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaymondMillbrae Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 Thanks again, guys. As for the "Cat Tails"...way ahead of you. In Christ: Raymond CAT TAIL MODELS CAT TAIL PHOTOS CUSTOM CAT TAILS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 When you get to the Meopta on the Larue mount with the Cat Tail...you'll know it's the best one there...of course I'm biased. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaymondMillbrae Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 I was RIGHT AT THE DOOR to purchase a Swarovski Z6i, but the guys wouldn't work with me - so iI dropped it. They offered me the Z6 1-6x24 (non illuminated reticle) for $1,300.00 shipped to my door. But I turned it down. I made up my mind that a daylight illuminated reticle is the way to go in 3-gun. My next step was the NightForce NXS 1-4x24. I was right at the door to purchase it from LaRue Tactical (the money was burning a hole in my pocket), but again, I had a change of mind. I had to step back and think to myself..."Forget abot the quality of the scope. Forget about the glass. Forget about everything in a scope. The question is: what will work best for 3-gun"?! So I sat back, got different opinions from various places, and came up with this list: 1) I wanted great glass. Not exceptional glass like a Swarovski or a NightForce scope - just really good glass. And since the San Francisco Bay Area does not have too many long-distance ranges (200 to 300 yards would be the norm for me), I figured exceptional glass was kind of overkill. Why pay for it? If it was sharp and clear out to 300 yards...cool. 2) I wanted a good QCB reticle. Taking that 90% of the 3-gun matches here in the Bay Area are QCB, I opted for a good short range reticle. (I didn't need a cluttered scope with fancy-smancy stadia reticles for 50 yard shots). Point and shoot quickly and accurately. That's the name of the game. 3) And lastly, I wanted...umm...demanded, an illuminated daylight reticle. I read too many stories about certain colors getting washed-out in bright light, or mil/MOA dots being to small to hold the color in bright light, or, blah blah blah. I wanted an illuminated reticle that EVERYONE agreed was reliable and dependable. (Regardless of subjective opinions). So in the end...tum tum tuuuuuuuuuuum... *suspense music* ...I went with the tried and true "Meopta Meostar". It had the best glass of the other two in it's price range (Trijicon TR24 & Burris XTR14), it had a great QCB reticle, and it had a fantastic daylight illuminated reticle. I know others will stand their ground and defend what they have (that's totally cool with me), but this is why this shooter took this route. I had the money for a Swarovski and an NightForce, and I was dying to mount one of those puppies on my black rifle...but in the end, I was convinced that it was not the best choice for a 3-gunners needs. Can I purchase a $3,000.00 Swarovski and excell in 3-gun? Yep. Can I purchase a $1,500.0 NightForce and kick butt in 3-gun? Yep. Do those phat-money scopes have everything I need for 3-gun? Ummmmmmmmm... Am I just adjusting myself to what the scopes can do, instead of purchasing the scopes because of the requirements needed in a 3-gun environment? I had to step back, take a deep breath, and make an unbiased decision. (Cuz REALLY REALLY wanting the Swarovski or the NightForce scope was clouding my impartial decision-making process). In the end I choose the latter situation. I choose the best scope for a 3-gun environment (in my opinion), and went with the Meopta Meostar package from LaRue Tactical. I had the Swarovski in my sights, and I had the Nightforce in my pocket. But in the end I chose what I needed, vs the "cream of the crop" in materials. The money saved is going towards a Dillon 1200B case trimmer (with a complete quick change kit and stand), a Dillon Super Swager, and a CATS TAIL for the scope. And if there is anything left over (which I don't think will happen), it will be dumped on small pistol primers. So anyhoo...THAT is the end of my journey. So now you know the rest of my story...and why. Shoot with a purpose...and don't be a blind follower. In Christ: Raymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cold Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) Tod, I know I told ya I was done here but ...since your discussing the K-Dot...just some food for thought. Dave Fortier mentioned to me at the LT3G in March (I write for his website so he kicks me "intel") that Meopta is looking to release a NEW K-Dot or some sort of K-Dot II around SHOT SHOW TIME.... he has spoken to Meopta about the reticle and added input from other end users about it, and I will likely be doing a side by side review of Old Meopta K dot vs New Meopta K Dot II (whatever the new ret and name is). The K Dot is great, excellent glass for the money, with very clear edge to edge clarity , the only issue I saw with it was the reticle. That dot was , in my opinion pretty damn bright! I got my K-Dot from LaRue with the SPR1.5 mount, great pricing and well... being a Texan it was a no brainer who I bought from. Stay tuned... Edited August 22, 2009 by cold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaymondMillbrae Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) Dave Fortier mentioned to me at the LT3G in March (I write for his website so he kicks me "intel") that Meopta is looking to release a NEW K-Dot or some sort of K-Dot II around SHOT SHOW TIME.... he has spoken to Meopta about the reticle and added input from other end users about it, and I will likely be doing a side by side review of Old Meopta K dot vs New Meopta K Dot II (whatever the new ret and name is). Drats...again!! I was gonna order the Meopta on Monday. Should I wait? In Christ: Raymond Edited August 23, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Said the great Big Bear,,,, You don't really come here to hunt...Do you Raymond...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cold Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) Dave Fortier mentioned to me at the LT3G in March (I write for his website so he kicks me "intel") that Meopta is looking to release a NEW K-Dot or some sort of K-Dot II around SHOT SHOW TIME.... he has spoken to Meopta about the reticle and added input from other end users about it, and I will likely be doing a side by side review of Old Meopta K dot vs New Meopta K Dot II (whatever the new ret and name is). Drats...again!! I was gonna order the Meopta on Monday. Should I wait? In Christ: Raymond Should you wait? Why let anyone on a internet discussion forum make that decision for you. As I tell others on various sites I am on, do the research (which includes forums, ask questions, look through the glass if possible) and make an informed decision on your own. I said "word is" for a reason. Meopta is looking at updating the reticle but that does not mean they will in fact do so, nothing is for certain. While I think Dave's intel is obviously good intel, I cannot make that decision for you. Meopta could just as easily do nothing. SHOT Is approx 5 months out too. If you need an optic for an upcoming match, why wait? Get to shooting whatever you buy and I am sure it will work out stellar. Edited August 23, 2009 by cold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Just buy the scope and shoot. There's a VERY SHORT list of gun "writers" that I trust and a good hint is that they post here. Too, there's probably a reason certain shows didn't get picked up for another season on OLN. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaymondMillbrae Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) Thanks. And by the way, those were the very last words the bear ever said to me. Anyone have a toothpick? (Old bears make for tough, "meat-sticking-between-teeth," stews). In Christ: Raymond Edited August 23, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Dave Fortier mentioned to me at the LT3G in March (I write for his website so he kicks me "intel") that Meopta is looking to release a NEW K-Dot or some sort of K-Dot II around SHOT SHOW TIME.... he has spoken to Meopta about the reticle and added input from other end users about it, and I will likely be doing a side by side review of Old Meopta K dot vs New Meopta K Dot II (whatever the new ret and name is). Drats...again!! I was gonna order the Meopta on Monday. Should I wait? In Christ: Raymond Shotshow is still almost 6 months away and if they release the scope then, it will probably be another few months before it's available. Do you really want to wait another ~8mo before getting a scope? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Yeah.....i've been hearing since before this years SHOT show that a new low power scope and reticle were to be released. That was one of the first booths on my list. But nothing to see......but they did confirm some new stuff was in the works. My guess will be it will debut at SHOT in Vegas THIS year. I would go ahead and get the KDot now and start practicing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaymondMillbrae Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 (edited) I would go ahead and get the KDot now and start practicing. Thanks. I found a Meopta Meostar K-Dot, shipped to my door, for $700.00. I'll be picking it up on Monday, Tuesday at the latest. I also had a slight change of heart on the LaRue scope mount. I believe I am going away from the Quick Disconnect style. If I will not be removing the scope, there's no use in paying the extra shekels on the QD mount. On top of that (not that it will happen), it lessens the chance of someone coming by and snatching the scope off my rifle when I am not looking. (In some ranges, the rifles are left on a rack while other shooters are running the stage). If the above scenario works out, then I may have saved myself another $90.00 shekels to treat the patient wifey to a nice lunch somewhere. In Christ: Raymond Edited August 24, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaymondMillbrae Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 FYI, EURO-OPTICS (click on link), is having a sale on the Meopta Meostar K-Dots. I was communicating with Alex, and I just prchased one, shipped to my door, for $700.00 flat. In Christ: Raymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 I prefer to buy from Forum sponsors and then from those that support the sport before going elsewhere. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaymondMillbrae Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 (edited) I prefer to buy from Forum sponsors and then from those that support the sport before going elsewhere.Rich Ouch!! Twenty or $30.00 difference, I can deal with. I do it all the time, locally. (Support your local gun stores)!! But a $100.00 savings?! It was an easy choice. In Christ: Raymond Edited August 24, 2009 by RaymondMillbrae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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