New Target Trouble?

[JFD]

I've recently welded 5 new targets for my local match, based on something I saw on the web. Basically I have a 10" round plate welded to a steel tube. At the base of the tube are 2 receivers (attached to a cross bar) for target slats. The paper starts out face down, but is moved upright when the plate/apparatus is knocked down. Two of these targets have a pair of additional hinged receivers so that the paper can be set to disappear (move 180 degrees) if the evil MD feels the urge.

The 10" plates are all I had available, and I'm wondering if the targets are illegal. Or maybe the plates could be labeled "activators" and I avoid the shame. It's shameful enough to build something that I don't have a name for, so I hope additional shame can be avoided. "Floppers" is the current school of thought on what they're called, but I'm hoping for something less "floppy".

This outcome directly affects future plans for some 10" square plates we have, although I could cut these down.

I've tested the targets and they seem too fun to be illegal.

[Liota]

Edited for content on the basis of a foggy, sleep-deprived brain.

L

[skeeter]

sound like great fun to me. for a local match i'd think they would be fine. might even work for some larger ones too.

[ErikW]

The only USPSA legal plates are 8" round and 6" square.

[JFD]

We have a pair of falling targets purchased a couple of years ago that make really good activators. They have paper targets covering 2 steel plates attached to the frame. Shoot the head or the body "A" zone and the target falls. The target is scored as "steel" and shots in the "C" and "D" zones do not count. Once down, either shoot something behind it, and/or deal with what was activated. Neither plate (1 is square, 1 is rectangular) is 6" square. Are these also illegal due to the plate sizes? If not, then I could stick a paper target in front of my plates and my targets would be good to go?

I'm not wanting to argue, as I also think the plates need to be 8", but am still grasping at straws here.

Appendix D mentions affixing a block of wood to keep the plate from turning. This would seem to indicate that a plate is a freestanding target, not part of a larger apparatus. Could it be that my plates are not really plates at all in the official sense? Is it possible that the rules don't address such a thing?

I realize that's a lame arguement, but that's about the best I can do. My plates DO fall down when hit, so I'm guessing a plate is a plate.

These targets will be used in my November match, but I may be able to get the plates cut down before my next match. Basically I want to see how they work and how well they are received before spending any cash on them. So far the steel has been free, and I'm only out for some mig wire and a few hinges. My target budget is very low and basically anything I do is out-of-pocket. With marginal attendence as of late, too many things have been out-of-pocket lately.

[Neil Beverley]

JFD

There is no requirement to add a block of wood to the target stand. This is just one suggested design feature. The important factor is to prevent targets that can turn edge-on or sideways and by the sounds of your description your target designs should comply.

While the use of the metal plates as activators is legal and sound like they will be a lot of fun I can't see how having paper targets on the front of them with non scoring C and D zones could be permitted within the rules.

You could consider only presenting the central strip of the paper targets to the same width as the metal targets behind and then cover the C and D zones with either penalty targets or hard cover but from your description it seems there would still be a gap between the upper and lower A zones which wouldn't activate the targets behind.

Unless you're very careful you may create problems and when you have a good activator then it is probably best to use it just as an activator and avoid the potential for disputes which can spoil otherwise clever designs. It would be easier to comment if a photo or diagram could be provided. I'm sure Vince wil also add his views in time.

Until the 2004 rules take effect the sizes of plates for IPSC (for HG) is the same as stated by Eric.

However, from 2004 the permitted sizes for IPSC are as stated below and I've pasted some other relevant rules. I think most on this forum will be aware that the rules are being discussed this weekend by the USPSA BOD and I know that the US representatives of the IPSC rules committees were all in favour of widening the scope of permitted sizes for metal plates.

Handgun:

4.3.1.4 Various sizes of metal plates may be used (see Appendix C3), however metal plates must not be used exclusively in a course of fire. At least one authorized paper target or IPSC Popper must be included in each course of fire.

HG APPENDIX C3

IPSC Plates

Round: 20cm (7.87 ins) minimum - 30cm (11.81 ins) maximum

Square or Rectangular: 15cm (5.9 ins) min each side - 30cm max each side

Shotgun and Rifle:

4.3.1.4 Various sizes of metal plates may be used (see Appendix C3).

SG & R APPENDIX C3

IPSC Metal Plates

Various square or rectangular sizes are permitted providing between: 15cm x 15cm (minimum) and 45cm x 30cm (maximum). Round metal plates are also permitted with a minimum diameter of 15cm and a maximum diameter of 30cm. Preferred sizes are 15cm x 15cm, 20cm x 15cm, 25cm x 20cm and round plates with a diameter of 20cm, 25cm or 30cm.

Scoring value: 5 points. Penalty value: -10points.

In order to enhance course design, it is permissible to have a small number of Metal targets score double value for a hit or a miss in this discipline. Any such targets must be clearly pointed out in the stage briefing and must have been approved during the course review process.

Plates may be used on their own in a course of fire.

9.4.1.1 In order to recognize a difficult shot in a course of fire, a small number of metal and/or frangible targets may score double value for a hit. The use of such targets is restricted to not more than 10% of the total number of targets in the match. Their use must have been approved during the course review process and they must be clearly identified in the written stage briefing.

Shotgun only:

4.3.1 Approved metal targets for use in IPSC Shotgun matches are IPSC Poppers, Metal Plates and Silhouettes. Silhouettes may be used that match the design and overall scoring dimensions of the IPSC Metric or Classic paper targets. All types of Metal Targets may be used as scoring targets or penalty targets. They must be scored in accordance with the relevant Appendices.

Rifle only:

4.3.1 Approved metal targets for use in IPSC Rifle matches include any metal target that provides an adequate method of determining hits or misses other than by falling (self-indicating hits). Scoring metal targets by listening for hits is not permitted.

Incidentally, with regards to target design (mainly for shotgun), you may also find the following link of interest: Separating Plates

[JFD]

I appreciate the help Neil (Eric also).

I'm going to check the manufacturer name on the 2 falling targets we have. Maybe they have a web site or I'll just take a pic next time I'm at the club. The "things" are fairly fun to shot, and fall hard enough to set off any prop. It's hard to believe our former MD would have bought these things if they're illegal for USPSA. The last time I used them, I painted hard cover on everything but the two "A" zones, making for a visually intimidating target, but one that would insure target activation with an "A" hit. I'll look into this more and post when I have more information. It's gets kind of old explaining to shooters that the paper is actually steel. To date all have given me funny looks but immediately see the fun factor and it's never been a problem. It seems that you've visualized the target quite well (definitely a space between the "head" and "body").

I realized the wooden block was a suggestion, but hoped the mention of it would have helped define a plate as being something other than what my new welded targets were.

The IPSC plate rule looks very promising, but now I have to get to the USPSA web site to confirm they are on board with the new sizes. If so, my problem will be solved very shortly. The good thing about my plate/paper combination target is that I'll always comply with 4.3.1.3

Thanks again for the help.

Update: It does look like my plate targets will be illegal for a single match only. In January they will be legal. My thanks to whomever loosened the 8" rule. My financially poor group now has 5 new cool targets for almost no cost. Too bad clay pigeons are still a no-go for handguns.

[Neil Beverley]

JFD

It sounds like good news with regards to plate sizes.

Unless you're very careful you may create problems and when you have a good activator then it is probably best to use it just as an activator and avoid the potential for disputes which can spoil otherwise clever designs.

I'm not sure that I properly explained that while I'm suggesting using this set up "just as an activator" I still see them as scoring plates and you correctly stated earlier that your plates fall so no problem. Only the size issue could be a problem (until 2004).

In fact you shouldn't introduce any shooting problem that doesn't attract a score.

[JFD]

I agree that any non-scoring target (activator only) would be a bad idea unless the shooter just pushes the thing over (yawn...). As far as this odd pair of falling targets goes, I'd be happy to leave them alone in the future if they are illegal. IDPA and our outlaw match can use them. I'm not too worried about them anyway, and will research them more when I get a chance. I'll get a pic when I can. I'll also attempt to get a pic of my new welded targets soon, since they're still in my garage.

Based on the new rules, which I understand have already been approved, the 10" square plates we have could also be recycled into something new. I have no idea what that might be, but the size is now good to go, or soon will be. I need to do some surfing and see if I can find any ideas. I have a free source of steel tubing, so the idea is the main problem.

[Vince Pinto]

JFD,

Sorry to reply to this thread so late, but my colleague Neil Beverley has capably answered your questions in respect of IPSC rules.

However I'd just like to add that IPSC rules only dictate the shape and size of approved targets - the way moving target mechanisms are constructed is left entirely up to the course designer or builder.

Having said that, I agree that the "activator" should also be a scoring target (e.g. a plate or popper).