Non-ipsc 3-gun Rules

[Jim Norman]

I am thinking that with growth of non-IPSC 3-gun and the number of different venues. that there should maybe be an exchage of rules amongst the organizers. This should include scoring methods as well as equipment rules.

Potential topics:

Divisions?

How many?

He-Man, Iron Sighted Rifle, Optic Rifle.

Should there be an Open division for Pistol or Shotgun?

What is allowed as far as equipment in each?

Should they even exist?

Classification system?

Should there be one?

How would you work it without a national organization?

Could you simply assume USPSA or IDPA classification?

Prize structure: Lewis System? Class System, Top down only?

Scoring:

Time plus like IDPA?

Peronally I think this creates a problem. If you have a single time heavy course and one person smokes it, they can win the match even though they trashed half the rest of the stages.

Straight hit factor like IPSC/USPSA? Works to a point, but again different stages are valued more than others and it is possible to trash a couple small stages and still win.

All stages equal in overall match points? I like this method, you can use time plus or you can use hit factor. Assign an equal value to all stages, say 100 points and use the percentage of the winner as the match points, total them up and you have the match score. All stages and all skills are equally required and weighted.

Power factors: How do you score Major/Minor, Minor/Major Rilfe/Pistol? Major Major and Minor minor is easy.

is any rifle really "minor" after all, you can use a 75 grain .223 and hit out past 600 yards.

[BillL223]

Jim, following your format:

Divisions - Open, Tactical or Limited with an option for scoped rifle. Any optic o.k.

Classification System - None, I can't imagine a system that would work.

Prize Structure - Top Down, could require a deep prize table. I shoot for fun.

Scoring - I like your idea of all stages being equal

Power Factor - Establish a minimum such as 125 for pistol, 160 for rifle, 20 ga for shotgun. No major, I don't think existing rules reward the pain, suffering, and difficulty to shoot major rifle in this game (as you know).

[Garrett]

Divisions - Open, Tactical or Limited with an option for scoped rifle.  Any optic o.k.

So what is the difference between Tactical and Limited (w/ or w/o optics?) Are comps allowed in Tactical or Limited? If so, what's the difference between Open, Tactical, and Limited. It used to be that comps/optics were the primary difference between Open and Limited (still not sure what Tactical is. Anyone care to enlighten me?) Lately, there has been more of a push to make Limited more "Open".

[uscbigdawg]

I like the rules per the IMGA. Check out www.smm3g.com. Including He-man division.

Open, Tactical - Scoped Rifle, Tactical

For the purposes of USPSA integration, it would be Open, Limited - Scoped Rifle, Limited. Scoring is time plus penalties and the prize table is overall finish. Nice and happy. And, spectator friendly.

Rich

[BillL223]

In the context of my post, I meant Tactical and Limited as the same.

[kurtm]

Bill223:

I do believe that "He-man" class does indeed reward major shooters! Ask Blane West how much he likes the DSA .308 he won at Kyle's match for being high He-Man. Ask Kelly Neil How much he was rewarded for his win in He-Man at Raton. We once thought about combining "limited" and "tacticle", but you should have heard the moaning from the iron sight guys about 400yd 10" plates, so we will continue to break out those two catagories at RM3G. Do look for us to start a Major/minor differentiation on handgun and rifle in the next few years as I lobby the rest of the match staff to make the change. I fully expect shotgun will continue to be 12ga only for tacticle and limited. As the title of this thread pointed out this is NON USPSA/IPSC. I envision letting open have a little more lee way as it is ..... well....open. KURT

[Jim Norman]

Ok, Since I started this mess, I'll try to answer a few questions.

In the type of Match I am thinking of IPSC Open gear has no place. Sorry.

I foresee the following as 3-gun competition catagories, (Better choice than class or division)

Pistol, Rifle and Shotgun, essentially USPSA Limited. IRON Sights only. No Optics, at all. BiPod, OK, but it stays on the gun the whole match. A "military" Comp, or a Cooley or similar, 1" dia, 3" length, OK. I don't think the JP Cannon Brake is a proper comp for this type of match. I own one, I like it, but I shoot Limited IPSC so I replaced it.

I call this "Tactical" to differentiate the holsters and mag carriers that we all use in IPSC. They don't belong here. You have to be able to carry two weapon systems and ammo all day in a "Tac" match.

Open pistols in a "Tactical" match? I would be a bit leary of the 1 lb trigger and I am not sure if I've ever seen a full coverage, "Tactical" holster for a long slide, hybrid comped STI with a C-More mounted on it. Besides, you want to drag that fine peice of machinery through a muddy crawl?

Catagories would be:

Iron: Metalic Sights on rifle, Pistol and SG, Fiber optic inserts and tritium is OK.

Optic: Optically Sighted Rifle, one optic only, and it cannot be chaged or removed during the match.

Calibers: minimum .223, 9mm and 12 ga.

Iron-Man: Same as Iron, except for calibers, capacity and only a pump-Shotgun allowed.

.308/30-06 iron sighted rifle, pump shotgun and .45 caliber pistol, maximum 10 rounds.

Prize payout as follows:

High overall-combined-grand-poohbah-high exhalted-shooter (open to all competitors)

High Iron-man

High Optic Rifle

High Iron Rifle

Then Lewis system Gold Silver Bronze to as deep as the table or pot allows. if there are enough people, I'd add a 4th tier, call it copper. (open to all competitors)

Too bad about the 10" plate at 400 yards for the guys with iron, shoot inthe Optic catagory, you are still inthe running for all but two of the prizes. (BTW, I shoot irons at a lot of matches, including Kyle's last match, in the Iron-Man division)

Scoring? Time plus penalties is not a good method, unless it is converted to balance out the stages. As an example: You are at an 8 stage match, 7 stages are all pretty even, 20-30 seconds each, but there is a killer rifle stage with some really hard long shots. The second best time is 70 seconds off the stage winner. The stage winner was down 60 going in and there were a lot of people between him and #1 spot. Because he lucked out, or was really good at this one single stage, he wins the match in Time Plus. Not a good system Convert to place points, Winner gets 1 point, second gets 2 and so on, low score wins, or convert to percentage of high score and use percentage points as match points High score wins. both methods will balance out the match better, the second method I feel is better as it make every stage and every skill equal in importance towards winning.

As to Power Factors, I have been mulling that over quite a bit. In an IPSC match where you engage all the targets on a stage with one gun, it is easy, Major, minor no prob, but when you combine a major pistol with a minor rifle and you force a transition after a number of rounds, not after a certain target, how do you account for the difference?? I am currently thinking of scoring according tothe rifle caliber, minor rifle, then you are minor, major rifle and you are major. I'd appreciate some specific feedback on this question.

We have posted the rules we expect torun under this year at www.OBCATS.com. I personnaly think that if we can keep the rules down to a single page we have done some good.

Jim

[kurtm]

Jim:

Your post should have been...this is what we do what do you think? So here is what I think.

Open is the development field. There wouldn't be Aimpoints on "tacticle" rifles that the cops and military use, if it weren't for open. To not allow open is to stop development!

The Lewis system rewards mediocraty, not skill. To be absolutely hard nose about "TACTICLE" and then reward the 80th place guy flies in the face of "tacticl reality, which it seems you are trying push.

Carry two guns all the time? Darn right!!

Differentiating major/minor in one stage is easy. Two hits anywhere for the big holes = neutralised, and when the small holes appear, at least 2 Cs to neutralise, needs good R.O.s

As long as the weight of each stage is the same, time works great, has worked great, and continues to work great, in my opinion.

This IS NOT an attack on your system! This is just my feed back to what I think your question is! KURT

[Jim Norman]

Kurt,

I posted what I thought might start a discussion about the rules in 3-gun, non-IPSC type matches. There are several items here that you tend to disagree with; I have no real problem with that alone. I use the word "Tactical" to differentiate this style of match from the USPSA/IPSC style. While I will agree again to a point re your comment that Open is the development or experimental bed for firearms and weapon systems, I think allowing IPSC open gear is asking for a problem. There are considerations regarding not so much the gun as the holster and the mag carriers. Generally OPEN gear is not designed for all day aggressive wear. A ghost holster is not made for climbing ropes, crawling through mud. USPSA Open Division is the place for Open gear, anything goes, almost. In the type of match we are discussing here, my belief is that there needs to be certain equipment constraints. My opinion.

You claim that the Lewis System rewards "mediocrity" I will agree that there is something to that, but this is after all a game. We keep score with points and a timer, not body bags, cardboard and steel don’t shoot back.

We at our match will pay High Overall, High Iron Sight, High Optic and 1-2-3 Gold. Depending upon the number of shooters, we will pay additional levels. Obviously High Overall is the Top Dog, this may be optic or it may be iron, next player, is either high optic or high iron depending upon the category of the #1 spot, then 1,2,3 Gold with the other “high category” score inserted as required. Only one prize awarded to a player.

After that the next prizes are if you want to put it that way, also rans. If you are against the Lewis system I assume you also favor paying only top down in IPSC/USPSA as well, after all a D class shooter shouldn't win anything, he's only mediocre.

As to scoring, you are to a point correct, bigger holes are pistol and they score as major/minor, smaller holes are rifle, same thing. Problem occurs in the current available scoring programs.

Time plus penalties works after a fashion, IF you convert all the stages to point in some manner and all the stages are worth the same points. Otherwise as I pointed out one really longer stage that someone really does well on and the whole match is skewed.

[kurtm]

Jim:

For almost 15 years, we at Rocky Mountain 3-gun have been running an open class right along with the rest of our divisions. They have had to do everything that every one else has had to do, mud, Cooper tunnels, climb, jump, low crawl in sand, etc. Not once has it been a "problem". We have had a few people even mention that it is cool to wear thier open gear all day as it has made them aware of changes needed that they wouldn't have known about otherwise. In practice open hasn't been a problem.

Since this is not USPSA/IPSC, there are no classes, so the "D" shooter, wouldn't get any prize for D, because there is no D. At Mesa and RM3G the prize table is DEEP and it isn't to rare for the 60th place guy to end up with prizes worth his entry fee. I shot one Lewis match years ago and ended up 3rd. Since there weren't that many people (50) who shot, the lewis break down ended up almost on the tens. First got a fully loaded Armalite AR, as did 10th and 20th, 30th and 40th got a Glock 24 each. This was a run what you brung match so no different divisions. What do you think 3rd over all got?? Any guess?? A small Bench made pocket knife. Yea I know I didn't win and if you want to look at it this way I was the second place looser, but it still bothered me that some one that placed that high basicly got dick. I didn't complain...I just don't do Lewis anymore. It seemed to much of a lottery give away system.

I don't mind USPSA/IPSC having different prize table for the different classes. Since D shooters only compeat against other D shooters, thier prise table also runs top down. The prises arent divided up by winner, first "gold", first Silver' etc. The D class people walk thier prise table in order of finish. Don't mistake USPSA/IPSC's prise structure for Lewis, it isn't. It is very similer to having Iron sights compete against iron sights, and optic against optics.

We do assign the same amount of points for each stage. We have for lo these last 8 years. EVERY stage is worth 100 points, and every body gets a percentage of the winners points on that stage. As for the big hole, little hole I was including rifle, as a .30 cal is a bigger hole than .223. We have written our own scoring system and it seem to work just fine. The major minor is taken care of right at the target, not at the stat shack, so we can differentiate between guns in a stage, I.E. a major pistol and a minor rifle, and still come out with a complete score.

What Match do you put on? I help put on and run Rocky Mountain 3-Gun, U.S. Marshals match, a L.E. only 3-gun match for Point Blank Armor, and was one of the two match directors for the last S.O.F. that was put on in Raton N.M. It sounds like you run a match very similer to Kyles, and I know those are great fun. Post your match here and let us all know where and when. KURT

[AH6IP]

Kurt-

does this mean you're not shooting Kyle's match anymore?

[Jim Norman]

Kurt,

In no particular order I will try to reply to your posts. I think we are most likely reading pretty much the same story here, just interpreting it slightly differently. Kind of that old: “I know you think you understand what you thought you heard me say" syndrome.

Your definition of Lewis and mine are somewhat different. The description of the Lewis System prize table that you give is not one I have seen, The way we do it is to pay High overall, then either high optic and high iron as those position fall with 1,2,3 Gold generally being the 2nd, 3rd & 4th. It may look like this: Match winner (Iron sighted) Second Place (Iron sighted) Gets High Iron, Third finisher shot optics and wins High Optic, then we’d pay 1st, 2nd, & 3rd Gold. The balance of the match gets split into levels, generally Silver and Bronze. There can be additional levels or we could add to the depth of each level, i.e., 4th, 5th, 6th etc. The way I foresee it is that 1st Gold will receive a larger share of the pot than 1st Silver, which is larger than 1st Bronze. The same holds true for each successive level, 2nd on down.

USPSA does not generally have a different prize table for each class, they co have one for each division. The top 16 go, the class and category winners go and then the rest in order of finish. D shooters are scored against the top dog and go to the prize table in order of their overall place. That is except for the High D, he goes ahead of the “rank and file”. Kind of a Lewis with some modifications. He wasn’t randomly picked, he did finish at the top of a predetermined group, but he wasn’t scored against that group, his scores and place are entirely based upon the top dogs.

We do agree on the leveling of stage values, in my opinion that is the only way to run a match. I wish USPSA did the same. This way each skill set and each stage count equally. We are using hit factor scoring, although time-plus may be easier. We are still exploring some items. We assign each shooter match points equal to his or her percentage points on a stage. Pretty much the same thing you are doing. The way we are planning on handling the major/minor situation this year looks like this: We will know which targets were supposed to be engaged with rifle and which with pistol. Since you will have a limited number of rounds to fire prior to the transition, we will score the requisite number of targets based upon that fact. I.e., if T-1 thru T-6 were rifle and you shoot minor rifle and you were to load 12 rounds in your rifle. Even if you miss 3x and make them up with your major pistol, you will still score minor o those targets. Kind of a penalty for not hitting the target the first time.

You asked about our match. We are running what we call the 2003 Tactical Challenge. For details and match information go to www.OBCATS.com Entry fees and an application as well as the rules are posted there. I also think that my co-director posted this information in another spot on this forum.

This is our 2nd full scale match so named, the prior year we ran an unnamed 3-gun match, over the Christmas/New years holiday weekend. It had no name. it was 4 stages, but one of them was 3 full scenarios. That stage used 3 pits that we would normally have put 3 stages into and required about 60-70 rounds utilizing rifle, pistol and shotgun.

We normally run a USPSA match with up to 7 stages and a rifle or Pistol side match each month, except December. This because we shoot on the 4th Sunday and that is generally the Christmas weekend. Not likely to be a good draw.

The last item I will address here is the Open category or division. You could be right and an Open Category might work. There are reasons that we are not including it in this match. The overall number of people that we will get to shoot this year is probably not more that the low 50’s including the RO’s. If we included an Open Division, I would have to split the match into at the very least two Divisions, Open and Tactical. Then that opens up the question of Open, Tactical Iron and Tactical Optic. I would then most likely score three separate matches, award a lower prize to each “Match Winner” and also have to split all the other levels as well. If I had the facility to run 150 shooters and could reasonably expect to have them come to NJ, then it might make sense. So we made a decision, One match, One overall winner, and recognize the High Shooters in the two categories besides the overall winner. We included certain equipment rules that pretty much exclude USPSA Open type arms and gear in order to level the playing field a bit. Right? Wrong? Nope, just the way we are doing it. Will we entertain constructive ideas to change how we run our match? Of course!

Jim

[kurtm]

Jim:

When I hear Lewis, I think of the classic way it was done. Take all the shooters, divide that number into 4 equal catagories and award the top 3 in each catagory. I.E. 100 shooters, the top 25 would be in A class, 26th would be first B bracket, 51st would be first C....etc. Your way sounds a bit better.

I don't shoot alot of USPSA pistol ( I am just not that good ), but the matches I have shot had seperate prize tables. This may be just a local thing....I don't know.

I plan to check out your web site, and I hope your match growes! The more of these we have the better off all shooters are!

AH6IP:

I won't shoot Kyles match any more.....or less!, as I haven't yet had the time to get there! KURT

[AH6IP]

Kurt-

Hurry up and make time to come shoot the match next year. I guess it was at Jeff's shotgun blast that I last saw ya. Sucks to get old you know.

JL