Pill To Reduce Hearing Loss???

[jeff89]

I just read a news story Here that is talking about developing a pill to reduce hearing loss. It seems that it is being tested on a group of marines at pendelton soon. If it works, it could be used in addition to hearing protection to give us better protection. Hopefully it works, in the meantime I may start takeing antioxidants, even if it doesn't work it'll still be good for me

Jeff

[tightloop]

If there is an MD on the forum, chime on it; but I do not think repairing the damage done within the ear can be done with a pill. If it can, I'll be one of the first in line.

[kimel]

Not an MD but I have a background in neuroscience:

Some hearing damage can be slowed down, even halted and maybe reversed to some extent. Most hearing damage cannot be repaired...at least not until we figure out how to regenerate nerve cells.

There have been reports for years that anti-oxidants will help slow down hearing loss. But I can't see how a pill is going to help protect against noise induced hearing loss...unless maybe you stuff a bunch of them in your ears.

[kevin c]

I'm an MD, but a pediatrician, not a otolaryngologist, but will offer an informed layperson's two bits:

Traditional medical science would take the view that damage to the hair cells of the ear, which are an essential part of the hearing mechanism, is pretty much permanent - once damaged, there is little or no healing. This is why hearing damage/loss is cumulative over a lifetime. But it is worth noting a valid counterpoint, that we used to think that spinal cord and other nerve injury was also irreversible, and are now proved at least partially wrong. So it MAY be possible to recover at least some hearing.

My reading of this article is mostly that, by taking these new meds, it is hoped that one can prevent some of the hearing loss that would normally be expected from unshielded exposure to high decibel sound impulses like gun fire. It does not say that it will prevent all the damage caused by such exposure, nor does it say that it will reverse prior damage.

After the fact, oral doses of steroids have been used by ENT's to counter the development of inflammation in the damaged ear, in hopes of preventing some of the permanent hearing loss. This works to some degree, I am told, but no ENT I know would recommend going w/o hearing protection, on the assumption that deafness is curable. Along the same line, I think that it would be foolhardy to not use hearing protection, even with this new treatment, even if it were proven to be effective in reducing hearing loss. Rather, I personally would consider using the med WITH my muffs and plugs, as an extra layer of protection for my hearing, because, again, what is hoped for is prevention of some hearing loss, not a full cure for deafness already caused, and every little bit done to protect the ears preserves hearing that cannot be regained once lost.

Now, if they had an effective treatment for my impending Alzheimer's, I might actually remember to use double plugs .

[bountyhunter]

When I developed severe tinnitus, I did a ton of research into the area of hearing loss and treatments. Specifically, the research by Dr. Jastreboff is the newest and most informative. Hearing loss can result from a number of causes, most of which are mechanical:

1) Shattering the internal bones or eardrum.

2) Bending or breaking of the scillia (hairs) that conduct vibration.

3) Nerve damage

I am not sure how any medication could affect the mechanical damage components, but the brain itself has some surprising abilities in the area of hearing. Not long back, it was believed that once the brain was "wired" at an early age, it did not have the ability to re-wire itself. In fact, it does.

The brain takes the signals coming from the auditory nerve (which comes after all the mechanical transducers in the ear have vibrated) and processes those signals. It turns out the brain has a "frequency equalizer" which can amplify or attenuate specific frequency ranges. If you are exposed to a specific loud noise over time, the brain will put a "notch" in the hearing there at that frequency and you will not hear that frequency as well.

With tinnitus (a high frequency ringing) it seems that it may be the brain's response to the loss of sound input... either gradually with age or due to a traumatic loss. As we get older and the inner ear connections stiffen, they can not vibrate as fast and the high frequency hearin is lost with age. A 20 year old can probably hear above 20 kHz, a 40 year old is lucky to hear 10 kHz. As that is lost, the brain keeps "boosting" the gain on that frequency band. It appears tinnitus is just the baseline noise in the hearing system amplified all the way up.... same as when you turn on your stereo with no input and crank the volume up.... you just hear a hum or a hiss. When "normal" people were put in soundproof rooms and told to describe what they hear, it was exactly like what tinnitus sufferers hear.. except we hear it WAY louder and we hear it all the time.

In short, I would NEVER shoot without muffs at a minimum and plugs+ muffs is what I use 100% of the time. BTW: those electronic muffs that have internal speakers are a sure ticket to the "HUHHH?" club. They only give about 22 - 25 dB of attenuation and muzzle blasts from handguns range from about 145 to 165 dBA. That means those muffs will let about 140 dBA hit your ear if you are in an indoor range when a magnum is fired. Say BYE-BYE to your hearing....

[tightloop]

HUHHH!!!

[kimel]

They only give about 22 - 25 dB of attenuation and muzzle blasts from handguns range from about 145 to 165 dBA. That means those muffs will let about 140 dBA hit your ear if you are in an indoor range when a magnum is fired.

Not really. dB is on a log scale, not linear. For instance, 3dB is double, or half, depending on what direction you are going. So, you cannot just do simple subtraction or addition to determine what the actual result is.

[eric nielsen]

I'd just like to encourage people at tournaments to wear (soft) earplugs the whole time anyone is shooting with a couple thousand feet of you. Add muffs when you shoot, or RO an open shooter.

I never take out my yellow EAR plugs until the shooting (or loud noise at work) is over & done. I've got no measureable hearing damage from 12 years of shooting and 6 years in the Navy. Skeptical of the pills.

I always have plugs in, and I don't like the electronic muffs (I can hear the difference between between 29dB and 22dB and it bothers me, a lot.) I painted my earmuffs but I think they're called "Thunder 29".

Hearing damage continues to accumulate, whether you're too deaf to experience pain or not. Friends of mine walk around talking with no plugs, muffs off of one hear, and shooting going on. Very sad.

dvc - eric - a28026

[jeff89]

Not really.  dB is on a log scale, not linear.  For instance, 3dB is double, or half, depending on what direction you are going.

Can you explain that a little more... I'm a bit confused (ok ok challenged...)

I dont' think that the article suggests useing these instead of plugs or muffs, only as an extra line of defense. Like Caspian I wear plugs when around people shooting and add muffs when I'm doing the shooting.

Jeff

[bountyhunter]

They only give about 22 - 25 dB of attenuation and muzzle blasts from handguns range from about 145 to 165 dBA. That means those muffs will let about 140 dBA hit your ear if you are in an indoor range when a magnum is fired.

Not really. dB is on a log scale, not linear. For instance, 3dB is double, or half, depending on what direction you are going. So, you cannot just do simple subtraction or addition to determine what the actual result is.

Actually, dB calculations are done by adding and subtracting. You are correct they are logarithmic, and logs were invented for use by astronomers who had to do multiplication of huge numbers specifically because logs are added to multiply and subtracted to divide. It made the multiplication process simpler in the days before computers.

The decibel scale is logarithmic and the decibel was invented at Bell labs as a convenient way of measuring sounds. This is because as sounds get louder, the power level goes up exponentially. A log scale is necessary to measure this.

But to the subject at hand: SPL (sound pressure levels) are typically measured in dBA, which is a logarithmic sound level scale with a specifically defined level to which all others sounds are measured. The dBA is also measured on the "A" weighted audio scale which has a frequency response which is similar to the ear: peaks between 1k and 5k and rolls off at high and low frequencies. It is true that in dB a voltage doubling is a 6dB increase, a power doubling is a 3 dB increase, but for acoustics a noise level increase most people PERCEIVE as twice as loud is about 10 dB. An SPL change of 3 dB is hardly noticable.

dB pressure level reductions of hearing protectors are subtracted from the peak levels of applied sound, because that is how they are rated: for example, a set of muffs with a NRR (noise reduction rating) of 30 dB reduces the applied signal by that amount. If it is 160 dBA, then 130 dBA reaches your ears. The test vehicle is a plastic head with sensors in it and the muffs are placed over it. The dBA difference between the outside noise and inside noise are measured and rated as a dB ratio (ie, NRR: noise rduction ratio).

It becomes trickier when you stack protectors: A set of 25 dB plugs used with a set of 30 dB muffs do NOT provide 55 dB of reduction. In looking at the A scale we care about, I have found that inner plugs add about 10 - 12 dB of added reduction when used with muffs (empirical). So, 30 dB muffs and good plugs give you about 40 dB of protection. Important because tht brings ear shocks down from about 130+ dB to about 120 dB by adding the inner plugs with the muffs. Above about 120 dB is where damage occurs very quickly. By comparison, 90 dB music is pretty loud, rock concert levels run about 110 - 115 dB. An hour of exposure to 110 dB will leave your ears ringing and greatly reduce your hearing temporarily.

[eric nielsen]

If you're ears ring at ALL after any loud activity, 90% chance you have just lost some of your hearing.

IMHO, the electronic earplugs are not acceptable protection for pistol or rifle shooting. Maybe ok for shotgun, don't know firsthand.

I would never shoot indoors or under a roof without both plugs and muffs. The Navy makes the guys on the carrier deck wear both, for a reason.

dvc - eric - a28026