Idpa Nats Cof Question!

[Larrys1911]

OK Stage 15 (parking deck problems) You start facing 2 targets and a non threat at arms lengh, with a third partial threat target to the right behind a plastic barrel (about 6yds off when you engaged it). The third tgt was optional you could engage it on the move (retreating with the zero becoming smaller/obstructed) OR you could wait until you got behind low cover (one knee down behind a car) and engage T3 - T6. T3 and T4 were about 9yds T5 & T6 were about 18 yds from the car!

T3- T6 were partial tgts (half tgt showing cut lengthwise)

OK so the question!

When is is faster to shoot on the move and when is it faster to wait until you get there and set up?

TGO asked ME what the fastest way was! I told him it depended on his comfort zome shooting on the move. While I was running everyone I started thinking about it...... DANGER Will Robinson DANGER!

I NOW think it would have been faster to wait on T3 until you got to the car becasue you had to set up in that position anyway and shooting on the move "I think" would have been slower than a tgt transition!

What do you guys think.

IIRC Matt Burkett had the fastest time but I dont remember which way he did it. Seems like everyone did it differently!

Larry P

[Ron Ankeny]

In general (and I am not TGO) I shoot IPSC targets on the move because the risk is worth it. A Charlie hit isn't the end of the world. However, if I needed to set up in the position (IDPA) I would probably hustle to the position and do the transition rather than risk being down points, especially if the shot was tight. I can do target math fairly well in the IPSC world, but sometimes I go way too fast in IDPA because I think in terms of points across target faces (Alpha-Charlie) instead of points down. A 90 per cent three target array in IPSC is 1.5 seconds in penalties in IDPA. IPSC gaming doesn't necessarily cross over into the world of IDPA. It works the other way around too.

I wouldn't be suprised to see experienced IPSC shooters ask for an opinion from an experienced IDPA shooter. Afterall, it is your game. What the hell, if an SO or other observer is willing to tell me which method in general has been yielding the best times between shooters of similar ability, why not ask?

[Larrys1911]

Thanks Ron.

I guess you said it all in that post. As to asking my opinion on the stage I understand but I honestly dont think there is that much that you learn from IPSC that cant be adapted to IDPA.

Larry P

[Matthew_Mink]

I'm really interested in hearing some thinking on this one. After you and I talked after the match you really got me thinking. And that is dangerous.

[vincent]

I'm not a guru but here's what I think:

I can't remember the target numbers so I'll include descriptions of what I mean.

My opinion is that it was better to shoot T1-T3 (two on either side of hostage and the close partial on the right) on the move to cover, acquire "T4" (close partial on the left) and kneel at the same time, shoot T4, then move straight back to "T5" (far left), and then transition over to "T6" (far right). A shooter in front of me lost a round in the barrel (which by the way made the strangest sound while it spun inside) and got an FTN. I usually shoot big matches conservatively so to mitigate the risk of an FTN, I shot 3 rounds on all of the partial targets and took my time on the 18 yard shots. Even playing conservatively I came out around 13.5 seconds which includes 1 down (shooting a Kimber .45 and factory ammo). I think pushing harder and not shooting the extra rounds could have realistically shaved a second for me.

I think the guys who really tore it up were the ones who could shoot the 18 yard partial targets with confidence. I plan on getting that confidence before next year.

-Vincent

[Flexmoney]

Larry,

So the question is...should you shoot the six yard (partial) target on the move, and the more you move...the less target scoring area you have available? Or, should you set up in the next position and and take "static" shots on that same target at nine yards, while kneeling?

From what I understand of the problem, assuming that taking T3 on the move didn't put a squeeze on my reloading time, I would likely have went for the shoots on the move. Knowing that a down1 hit would add half a second (that is a transition). If needed, I would look to make up any called errors from the kneeling position.

Tough call though...you'd need some good "shooting on the move mojo".

[Larrys1911]

Well I designed part of the stage. The ones behind the barrels were in the original design, the rest was completely different!

I dropped a BUNCH more points on that stage than I should have. 9, IIRC 2 were on T3 and there was a miss on T5 or T6 (barrel) I dont know where the other two were. I was pushing too hard and it was the second stage we shot so I was cold too! I figure it would have helped me with the hits anyway!

Since I got to watch everyone run it I noticed that the big dogs really do slow WAY down for the hard tgts. I thought Burkett was shooting Bullseye BUT he had the fastest time 9.XX -2. TGO was the same way, he got to the back tgts and went into slow motion! His hits were unbelieveable in both my stages within an inch or two I think. Dave shot pretty slow too but they all got their hits. NONE of them had a FTN IIRC!

The reason for the question was I noticed a lot of low level Masters and experts wanted to babystep it while shooting T3 and when they did it was eating up their time in BIG bites! Then I was thinking well its a natural tendency to slow down to get the hits so why not high tail it to the car and THEN get the hits on a bigger tgt AND from a more stable position.

MattM, I wish I had run us both through that first three/four tgt array about three times each to see what was faster or if it made a difference at all! DOH!

Matt B, If you read this and remember how you did it tell me if you dont mind because you had the fastest time by around a second I think!

BTW congrats on the win, that was really good since you all but RAN through the match.

Larry P

[Ron Ankeny]

While I agree a person can transfer shooting skills from one discipline to the other, the target match just doesn't transfer for squat if you compare USPSA major scoring to IDPA scoring. On more than one occasion I have had my butt handed to me by people of less IPSCing ability when I treated an IDPA array like an IPSC array, lol. In IDPA, if a person slows down a bit to shoot on the move adding say .5 seconds to the overall time to move from one spot to the other and shoots slower splits in the process to avoid the points down, and still gets a few points down...well they are basically screwed and would have been better off to haul ass to the second position and spend the time on the sights. OTOH, we know, a Charlie or two in IPSC is survivable and in some instances plumb acceptable.

I suppose one could argue that the simple answer is to simply quit shooting points down by spending more time on the sights. Well duh. But it might not be that simple. Where do you spend the time on the sights? By moving slower and increasing the splits while shooting on the move? By moving quickly and efficiently to a spot? This is where experience is the best teacher and I don't plan on shooting enough IDPA to get the experience reguired to game the stage and do the math.

[Larrys1911]

I suppose one could argue that the simple answer is to simply quit shooting points down by spending more time on the sights. Well duh. But it might not be that simple.

It is!

Where do you spend the time on the sights? By moving slower and increasing the splits while shooting on the move? By moving quickly and efficiently to a spot?

Well Ron apply it to a POINT heavy IPSC stage and tell me what you would do! IDPA is simply a very point heavy stage every time IMO!

I think I have it answered the question in my head but I was kinda hoping for some input from the guys that KNOW movement and shooting a lot better than I do!

It may be a wash!

Maybe its too subjective becasue of ability?

Maybe I need to spend some time setting it up and running it to see! OH Sandman, You ready?

Larry P

[Ron Ankeny]

Larrys1911:

Without going into detail, I am stupid. Frankly, I don't KNOW jack about movement. Sorry about showing my ignorance.

[j1b]

Ok - I know this is going to sound blatantly obvious but here here's my opinion.

The target is 6 yards away, by the time you get to it, probably 8-10 yards away. If one feels like they can pop it quickly on the move without dropping points then I would have to guess that is the quicker way.

I would think of it like a diving board. In this forum we are seeing it from the ground. Its during the walk through that you see it from above, on the platform. Only then do you know what it is precisely that you're dealing with (it always looks higher from up above ie. HARDER)

One way to look at it is this. If it were IPSC - how would you shoot it? Ok - that's the fastest way. Now - convert to IDPA and assess how you feel like you can shoot the stage without dropping any points. Hopefully the two match. If they don't - that's when you to do a little risk analysis and figure out what you can do.

I know - too obvious

JB

[Ron Ankeny]

Thanks Jack, I don't feel so stupid anymore.

[Larrys1911]

Ron,

I didnt mean you didnt know anything! I was just hoping for more responses. I appreciate all the input I can get. I guess it should have been obvious that this one is going to be different for people based on their abilities. I just thought maybe you guys could give me a "this is the way to do it"!

I am sorry you took it as an insult, I assure you that was not my intent! Thanks for your input.

Jack,

Thanks for your input!

Are you gonna come shoot with us again at CASA?

Larry P

[j1b]

Larry,

Definitly intend to get back over there again. Work is keeping me on my toes.

I need to get matches on the schedule a couple of months in advance so I can plan around them better.

Right now, as BE would say - I'm nuts busy. Work is insane, and I'm trying to get promoted. The next step is a big one, and I feel like I'm getting close. Putting on the full court press.

Your idea of setting it up to analyze is the answer. It is the only way you will know and therefor assess any similar situation at another match.

People talk about the confidence of big shooters at big matches. The reason they have that confidence is because they know what they can do. Sometimes practice isn't needed to know a specific circumstance. The times that throw the pro for a loop are the times s/he makes a mental note, goes back to practice, and goes to the next match with a vary thorough understanding of what to do. Do that enough times in enough matches and you're going to cover a lot of the scenarios.

JB

JB