More Targets Present Than Scored

[ErikW]

Could I build a stage with x number of targets but specify y number of targets shall be scored, and allow the shooter to choose which y targets to engage?

E.g.,

Targets: 15 IPSC, only 10 of which shall be scored, best 2 hits each.

Hmm, there's a big hole there I need to overcome, but the basic question remains.

[Vince Pinto]

Erik,

Sure, for a fun match, why not?

However Rule 9.5.9 would put a damper on your idea at a sanctioned match.

[Flexmoney]

Vince,

What the hell is a "fun match"???

Is that just another way to word an IPSC/USPSA match that doesn't follow the "freestyle" principle...or the rule book?

(sorry E, feel free to move this if it drifts your thread.)

[lynn jones]

flex,

a fun match is not uspsa appoved. ipsc rules, but no sanction.

lynn

[Flexmoney]

Thanks Lynn. But, as you might have guessed...that wasn't the point I was trying to get across.

I'm pretty sure that Erik wouldn't have asked the question if he wasn't concerned about the rule book.

[ErikW]

9.5.9 If a competitor fails to shoot at each target in a course of fire with at least one round, the competitor shall incur one procedural

penalty for each target not shot at as well as the appropriate

penalties for misses.

No problem. Course description says there are x targets. Shooter decides which x of the y pieces of cardboard are targets. The leftover y - x cardboard are hardcover.

Actually, I've done a variation of this before myself, and I've seen other variations done. For example, three times x number of targets, a third blue, a third green, and a third yellow. At the start signal, a color is chosen randomly and those colored targets are the actual targets; the other colors are no-shoots. Or, roll a die at the start and engage that one target of the six in front of you.

[Vince Pinto]

Erik,

Very creative thinking but, sorry, no kewpie doll.

Targets are described and illustrated in the rulebook. If you have, say, 20 of them in a course of fire but the written stage briefing says "shoot any 10", the remaining targets are still targets which have not been engaged - hence Rule 9.5.9 applies.

Rule 4.1.5.2 and Rule 4.2.4 et al deal with Hard Cover, and the only legal ways to have Hard Cover are described in those rules.

Yes, I've also shot stages in a "fun match" where you shoot at one of three coloured targets, and it was a hoot, but that sort of stage does not qualify as an IPSC stage.

[ErikW]

I meant 3.2.4 hardcover. Maybe I should have said impenetrable prop.

The tri-color courses are legal in respect to your objections. The penalty targets are a different color than the scoring targets.

I love the duplication of 9.5.9 here...

10.1.4.8 If a competitor fails to shoot at any target with at least one round, the competitor shall incur one procedural penalty for each target not shot at as well as the appropriate number of misses.

US 10.1.4.8 If a competitor fails to shoot at any target with at least one round, the competitor shall incur one procedural penalty for each target not shot at as well as the appropriate number of misses. The exception to this is for disappearing targets, for which there are no miss penalties or failure to shoot at penalties.

Neither says "scoring target" so I guess I should hand out failure to engage penalties and misses on all the unengaged penalty targets. I mean, I'd have to under the Vince Pinto strict constructionism of 9.5.9 and 10.1.4.8, where if there's an IPSC licensed piece of cardboard or metal out on the range, it must be engaged. You and I both know that's ridiculous, but that's how it's worded, twice.

But under my strict constructionism of Sections 3.2, 4,1, and 9.5, I don't see why I can't specify that my stage has scoring targets, penalty targets, and non-scoring/non-penalty targets which are mere props. The rulebook has no words limiting designers to only scoring and penalty targets.

I've found a way to accomplish my goal of letting the shooter decide which of the targets are the scoring targets to be engaged, but it's a nightmare to set up. I'd rather find a way of doing it gracefully with the course description, within the rulebook, even if it's a grey area.

[Skywalker]

Erik,

last weekend we had a similar stage in our match:

4 targets and a popper painted pale blue, 4 targets and a popper painted brown, arranged in a simmetrical way some 12/15 metres downrange.

At the beep signal you had to unveil a dice (on a table between you and the targets) which had three faces painted pale blue, and three brown: the upright face identified the penalty targets, then you had to engage the opposite color targets to score.

The stage briefing clearly said the stage had 5 scoring targets and 5 penalty ones, and the penalty targets color had to be identified with the unveiled dice color. I think this kind of stage should be legal under IPSC rules.

Not sure about the non-penalty / non-scoring targets (mere props): I always thought (even if it is not explicitly written in the rule book) targets had to be either scoring or not scoring, sort of friendly or hostile, no neutrals or unidentified allowed.

[Vince Pinto]

Erik,

OK, I'll give this one more try then I'll quietly retire from this thread:

1. No, Rule 10.1.4.8 does not specifically say "scoring" targets, but do we really need to spell that out? However I'm more than willing to accept your intrepretation of Rule 10.1.4.8, which means you'll incur a procedural penalty and misses for each Penalty Target you don't shoot but you'll also incur penalties under Rule 9.4.2 for each hit you do have on each Penalty Target.

In other words, whether you shoot or don't shoot a Penalty Target, you get penalised.

2. Rule 4.1.3.1 requires that scoring paper targets be "of a typical cardbooard solid color". To me, this means brown but, if you disagree, please ask 10 people who are not associated with IPSC shooting to tell you what they consider to be the "typical cardboard color". I'll believe whatever answer you provide.

3. For the time being, if you can accept my argument that scoring targets must be brown, it therefore follows that Rule 4.1.4 requires Penalty Targets be "not brown" or clearly marked (e.g. with a large "X" painted across their face).

4. Hence, my conclusion is that targets must be clearly identified as either scoring targets or as penalty targets - they're not something which are "competitor selectable" during a COF.

5. And Rule 4.1.5.2 and Rule 4.2.4 continue to apply.

[ErikW]

Hence, my conclusion is that targets must be clearly identified as either scoring targets or as penalty targets - they're not something which are "competitor selectable" during a COF.

Thanks, Vince. That is my big stumbling block.

The difficult-but-legal way I envision is to use disappearing targets.

[Loves2Shoot]

Eric,

Just put out 20 targets (10 each color preferably black and white), and the shooter decides which color (black or white) to shoot, throw in some brown as no-shoots, and you should confuse the heck out of everyone.

[Garfield]

Just put out 20 targets (10 each color preferably black and white), and the shooter decides which color (black or white) to shoot, throw in some brown as no-shoots, and you should confuse the heck out of everyone.

ROTFLMAO !

You are really helping