Robley Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I recently returned to uspsa/ action pistol shooting after a very long absence. I interested a friend as well and we have attended a few weeks worth of "fun shoots" at the local indoor range. These shoots are not sanctioned uspsa but are modeled very closely and a lot of the local competitors shoot them through the winter months. Both of our pistols feature magazine disconnects (the trigger will not function without a mag in the weapon), and the "unload and show clear" commands had generally been followed by use of the decocker in lue of an ineffective trigger pull. I wasn't able to attend this week as I was out of town, and was surprised to hear my friend tell me of another range officer who insisted that he not decock, but release the slide with the trigger pulled, and reholster. This left him with the weapon holstered, empty, but not safed. At the next time he ran through the course he was in the position of chambering a round into the weapon with the safety off. Said RO was watching for this, and then wanted him to decock as part of the "load and make ready", but after chambering a round! After assuring my buddy that this guy was full of it I was astounded to look up the commands and find out he was right?!?! 8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” – After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). While continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows: 8.3.7.1 Self-loaders – release the slide and pull the trigger (without touching the hammer or decocker, if any). I am familliar with old school fear of decockers and the absolute certainty that they must eventually fail and discharge the weapon, these are the same guys that think cocked and locked carry must be fine and safe, but shouldnt the safety be engaged in there somewhere BEFORE a round is chambered? Why do the rules still read this way, and is dropping the slide with the trigger pulled an effective proof of chamber condition with a "magazine disconnect" equipped pistol? And surely engaging the safety before reholster is a good idea? Thanks in advance Robley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgood Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 (edited) I'm new to all this and I'm sure someone else can give you a better response, but I'll put in my $0.02 anyway. The way I read the rules, and the way I've seen it done at the couple of matches I've been to, is that you should close the slide and then pull the trigger, not hold the trigger back while dropping the slide which is what it sounds like you're saying. What the rules say is that you must pull the trigger. I suppose that by pulling the trigger, even though that doesn't actually do anything on a gun with a magazine disconnect, it complies with the rules. (Not sure I like this view, as the gun is still cocked. But if the rules say pull the trigger and you pulled the trigger . . . ) Surely some RO can tell us how this is really supposed to be handled. A lot of this looks like it was written with the 1911 in mind. You asked about putting the safety on before chambering a round. On a 1911, the safety can not be engaged with the hammer down. You have to cock the hammer before you can put the safety on. So since the hammer stays down after the "hammer down, holster" command, the gun doesn't get cocked again until the next time you're at the firing line and load and make ready under the supervision of the RO. At that point, when you chamber a round, the hammer is cocked and you engage the safety before holstering. Edited March 16, 2009 by mgood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 (edited) If you shoot a gun w/ a magazine disconnect, you need to keep an empty mag in your pocket for the purposes of "ICHDH". The only way to empirically demonstrate that the gun is empty (by the rules) is to have the hammer fully fall on an empty chamber. Once that has occurred, having the safety on in the holster (on an empty gun) doesn't really buy you anything. The basic procedure is to remove the charged mag, rack a round out. Show clear. Upon receiving "ICHDH", remove your empty mag from your pocket and show to RO (so that he can see its empty), drop slide, insert empty mag, pull trigger, remove empty mag (and stow in pocket), and holster the now "empirically proven empty" gun with the hammer all the way down (not decocked). If you have a decocker, use it during the "Make Ready" phase. No worries there. If the decocker breaks and drops the hammer, you may be temporarily DQ'ed until you demonstrate that the pistol is broken - and you'll have to repair or replace the gun in order to continue. You may also need new underwear Hopefully, you were smart and had the gun pointed into the berm when you engaged the decocker. Note that some folks are not familiar with this procedure. If you're being RO'ed by someone new to you, you might point out the magazine disconnect on the gun, and ask if they're familiar with the procedure you must follow with it (ETA a clarification above...) Edited March 16, 2009 by XRe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerT Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 (edited) Hi and welcome to the forum. I do hear what you are saying, but the rules are the rules... and written with 1911 type of gun in mind when it was written. IMO, the pulling of trigger to ensure clear chamber ("ultimate test") is a good practice and works fine for all guns except your configuration. (A possible, but not so practical work around is of course to insert an empty mag and pull the trigger) and then holster after removing the empty mag. I don't see any point in applying the safety before holstering, the gun has been proven unloaded in all possible ways. Loading the chamber with the safety off is safe enough, beacuse your finger is not on the trigger and it's done in a safe direction. I can't be sure, but most guns would not be able to engage the safety without cocking the hammer, and since the last thing we do before holstering is lowering the hammer, that is the position of the hammer when loading the chamber. What gun are you using? EDIT: What are the odds, that while you answer to an post, that was left unattended for several hours, you are beaten to it by TWO other members?? :P Edited March 16, 2009 by RogerT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kz45 Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 You should carry a empty mag, after unload and show clear, show clear and then insert the empty and drop the hammer on the empty chamber, drop mag and holster gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 (edited) If you shoot a gun w/ a magazine disconnect, you need to keep an empty mag in your pocket for the purposes of "ICHDH". The only way to empirically demonstrate that the gun is empty (by the rules) is to have the hammer fully fall on an empty chamber. Once that has occurred, having the safety on in the holster (on an empty gun) doesn't really buy you anything. The basic procedure is to remove the charged mag, rack a round out. Show clear. Upon receiving "ICHDH", remove your empty mag from your pocket and show to RO (so that he can see its empty), drop slide, insert empty mag, pull trigger, remove empty mag (and stow in pocket), and holster the now "empirically proven empty" gun with the hammer all the way down (not decocked).If you have a decocker, use it during the "Make Ready" phase. No worries there. If the decocker breaks and drops the hammer, you may be temporarily DQ'ed until you demonstrate that the pistol is broken - and you'll have to repair or replace the gun in order to continue. You may also need new underwear Hopefully, you were smart and had the gun pointed into the berm when you engaged the decocker. Note that some folks are not familiar with this procedure. If you're being RO'ed by someone new to you, you might point out the magazine disconnect on the gun, and ask if they're familiar with the procedure you must follow with it (ETA a clarification above...) Even if the gun is proved to be at fault you are still done. 10.4.9 removed from the book. DQ under 10.4.3 I think you are talking about 5.1.6 and .7 my take on that is if something breaks or becomes unsafe without having a DQ event while it happens... I'm not arguing for or against the ruling, just trying to go by the letter as I have been taught. JT Edited March 16, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee King Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Keep in mind when the RO asked your buddy to use the decocker after the "Make Ready" command, the production division requires you to start with the hammer down for Double/Single guns like a Beretta, CZ-75, some H&K's per rule 8.1.2.2 and Appendix D4. This isn't a safety rule but one to require all guns competing in the production division to have as close to an equal start condition as possible. I can't presume to know what the RO's intentions were. But IF your buddy was in fact shooting production there are 2 issues at work here. Safety at the ULASC command and division rules at the Make Ready command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Even if the gun is proved to be at fault you are still done. 10.4.9 removed from the book. DQ under 10.4.3 I think you are talking about 5.1.6 and .7 my take on that is if something breaks or becomes unsafe without having a DQ event while it happens... No, actually, I was thinking of 10.4.9. Hm. Interesting... I wonder what the intent was to remove that rule, and I suspect that it might be a valid arbitration on the DQ, assuming the shot went somewhere safe. But.... hmmm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt2ace Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 If you shoot a gun w/ a magazine disconnect, you need to keep an empty mag in your pocket for the purposes of "ICHDH". The only way to empirically demonstrate that the gun is empty (by the rules) is to have the hammer fully fall on an empty chamber. Once that has occurred, having the safety on in the holster (on an empty gun) doesn't really buy you anything. The basic procedure is to remove the charged mag, rack a round out. Show clear. Upon receiving "ICHDH", remove your empty mag from your pocket and show to RO (so that he can see its empty), drop slide, insert empty mag, pull trigger, remove empty mag (and stow in pocket), and holster the now "empirically proven empty" gun with the hammer all the way down (not decocked).If you have a decocker, use it during the "Make Ready" phase. No worries there. If the decocker breaks and drops the hammer, you may be temporarily DQ'ed until you demonstrate that the pistol is broken - and you'll have to repair or replace the gun in order to continue. You may also need new underwear Hopefully, you were smart and had the gun pointed into the berm when you engaged the decocker. Note that some folks are not familiar with this procedure. If you're being RO'ed by someone new to you, you might point out the magazine disconnect on the gun, and ask if they're familiar with the procedure you must follow with it (ETA a clarification above...) +1....assuring that the RO is aware that gun has a magazine disconnect is key to meeting the requirements of "ICHDH". Most shooters I have RO'd shooting guns with mag disconnects know how to execute "ICHDH" properly as you point out. When I RO that occasional new shooter who is unaware of the procedure, I take a few extra seconds to explain how what they need to do......usually I end up unloading one of their mags for them, handing it back and then have them execute "ICHDH". It amounts to a bit of education on both sides to assure a safe procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Even if the gun is proved to be at fault you are still done. 10.4.9 removed from the book. DQ under 10.4.3 I think you are talking about 5.1.6 and .7 my take on that is if something breaks or becomes unsafe without having a DQ event while it happens... No, actually, I was thinking of 10.4.9. Hm. Interesting... I wonder what the intent was to remove that rule, and I suspect that it might be a valid arbitration on the DQ, assuming the shot went somewhere safe. But.... hmmm.... I was told it was because people were ADing and saying the gun malfed to try and get out of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 No, actually, I was thinking of 10.4.9. Hm. Interesting... I wonder what the intent was to remove that rule, and I suspect that it might be a valid arbitration on the DQ, assuming the shot went somewhere safe. But.... hmmm.... I was told it was because people were ADing and saying the gun malfed to try and get out of it... That's what I was thinking it might be... it would make sense... It does make me wonder if, you can demonstrate clearly that the gun is broken, if you'd have grounds for an arbitration (in this case, being able to prove that you took no unsafe action, etc...).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 (edited) No, actually, I was thinking of 10.4.9. Hm. Interesting... I wonder what the intent was to remove that rule, and I suspect that it might be a valid arbitration on the DQ, assuming the shot went somewhere safe. But.... hmmm.... I was told it was because people were ADing and saying the gun malfed to try and get out of it... That's what I was thinking it might be... it would make sense... It does make me wonder if, you can demonstrate clearly that the gun is broken, if you'd have grounds for an arbitration (in this case, being able to prove that you took no unsafe action, etc...).... The RO would have to duplicate the failure or someone would have to be with the gun at all times to make sure it wasn't modified in the mean time. It would seem to require a lot of time from the match officials and maybe that's why they just removed it. If it goes bang you go home. On the other hand if a gun doubles a couple of times and you are told to stop. You can then change guns, so......... There might be an out in the rules... 10.5.9 says you must use the decocker if you have one. If it wasn't for that rule you could hold your fate in your fingers by lowering the hammer to the decocked position. Since they force you to use a decock you might argue that that action caused the gun to malf and you could have lowered it by hand. Since it's an expressly written rule, the rule inadvertently caused the AD... The other side of that says the equipment is unsafe, but is it really unsafe? Safety type devices can and will fail. It could be argued that by making you decock it was beyond your control and had you been allowed to drop the hammer manually the malf and AD would have not occured. Hmmm Presented just for thought, not to argue. JT Edited March 16, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 They changed the rule. If you stuff goes boom (when it's not supposed to), you go home. Puts the responsibility on the shooter to bring stuff that works. The old way, a broken part could save them. I DQ'ed shooter, then reinstated the shooter with different gear, after he was able to demonstrate that his gun would hammer follow while inserting a magazine. Other RO's might say that his gun wasn't broken unless you could be shown a broken part. I viewed it as the gun was broken, because it wasn't supposed to go boom when you inserted mag. Anyway...that alibi is gone. Arb'ing it would be a waste of the arb money, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robley Posted March 16, 2009 Author Share Posted March 16, 2009 The empty magazine thing sounds fairly familliar now that I hear it. It has been a long time ago, like my mid to late 20's. Time flies eh? Thanks guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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