Shots go low ?

[slickrick]

I'm a no. 1; however, i have a slightly diff. problem (not too OT actually). I tend to shoot better hits in matches because i'm conscious about the points, but my shots tend to hit low in practice when i tend to push myself to go faster! Any suggestions or drills fellas?

[Jake Di Vita]

Do you call your shots low or are you surprised when you go down range?

[slickrick]

Do you call your shots low or are you surprised when you go down range?

Honestly, i am suprised coz my sights are in the A zone,then i get irritated coz it goes on and on all throughout the practice session as i try harder. At matches my hits get better coz i tap slower sometimes too slow coz i tend to finish lower due to my time and not because of hits. To stay on topic, equal pressure with both hands but it seems i tend to grip more with the strong hand when i get pissed off and try too hard to hit better AND faster in practice. Any suggestions? or does my "problem" merit starting another topic?

[Jake Di Vita]

Honestly, i am suprised coz my sights are in the A zone

You might see them in the A zone - but they obviously aren't in the A zone when the gun fires.

This is a trigger control issue, which is totally seperate from how you grip your pistol.

Pull the trigger straight to the rear of the gun without moving the sights, and make sure you aren't closing your eyes when the gun goes off. Make your goal to see as much as possible.

[Flexmoney]

Could also be Prairie-dog'in. ...looking over the gun to see if you hit the target. Almost everbody that does this starts out picking their head up to look...and ends up dropping the gun down too.

[Flexmoney]

...equal pressure with both hands but it seems i tend to grip more with the strong hand when i get pissed off and try too hard to hit better AND faster in practice. Any suggestions?

I see that as a common problem. People are used to doing things with their strong hand...and default to more of that when they get tense.

For me, things got better when I realized that my strong hand's job wasn't to control the recoil of the gun. It was to work the trigger.

[Flexmoney]

As Jake says...get really interested in what your front sight is doing.

Make seeing your front sight lift in recoil be your one and only goal. (even...and especially...above hitting the target)

If you execute well, the outcome will take care of itself. Execution, in this case, should be following through on the front sight. It will probably prove helpful to exaggerate the follow through, for training.

[slickrick]

For me, things got better when I realized that my strong hand's job wasn't to control the recoil of the gun. It was to work the trigger.

Thanks! I will definitely try that approach later.

[slickrick]

You might see them in the A zone - but they obviously aren't in the A zone when the gun fires.

This is a trigger control issue, which is totally seperate from how you grip your pistol.

Pull the trigger straight to the rear of the gun without moving the sights, and make sure you aren't closing your eyes when the gun goes off. Make your goal to see as much as possible.

I think I'm going off to the range later for an unscheduled practice session. I tend to use a diff. set of ear plugs in practice, i might be closing my eyes. Thanks!

[sigfla]

I sometimes do this with my flat MS housing 1911. I never hit low with my arched one, go figure.....

You might see them in the A zone - but they obviously aren't in the A zone when the gun fires.

This is a trigger control issue, which is totally seperate from how you grip your pistol.

Pull the trigger straight to the rear of the gun without moving the sights, and make sure you aren't closing your eyes when the gun goes off. Make your goal to see as much as possible.

I think I'm going off to the range later for an unscheduled practice session. I tend to use a diff. set of ear plugs in practice, i might be closing my eyes. Thanks!

[slickrick]

Update guys, hope you could help me out again. After 2 practice sessions, i noticed shots wents low and LEFT from 15 mtrs out when i tried to tap faster as i gripped the gun tighter subconsciously. so next practice i alternately placed no-shoots under the A of the alpha zone of the target. Well, i still hit the no-shoot even if i try not looking at the white area, maybe around 10% of the time. It seems i'm flinching due to the death grip i do. Any suggestions?

Edited March 20, 2009 by slickrick

[1911jerry]

Sounds like you have the first joint of your index finger on the trigger, instead on the pad of the finger. This causes you to semi milk the trigger and the gun will shoot low/left.

JS

[Duane Thomas]

The classic answer to your problem is that you're doing what's called "crushing the gun," i.e. when your index finger curls to pull the trigger the other fingers curl, as well. Basically you're making a fist every time you pull the trigger. This of course, for a right handed shooter, pushes all your shots to the left, usually low left.

What you have here is a failure to disassociate your trigger finger from the rest of your hand. When the trigger finger moves, no other part of the master hand should move. Just the trigger finger, back and forth. Lots of dry fire can help. It also helps, with nothing in your hand, just to put your hand out, fingers curled as if you were holding a gun butt. Move your index finger back and forth as if pulling a trigger. Watch the other fingers. I'll bet you see them moving. Just keep doing that, over the weeks and months, until you can do it without the other fingers moving at all.

[Duane Thomas]

Also:

You didn't say what kind of gun you're shooting. If it's a "short trigger movement" gun like a Glock, 1911, etc., bear in mind you don't have to move your entire index finger to fire the gun. Actually only the first two joints move, everything from the second knuckle back stays absolutely immobile.

I'd suggest lots of dry fire focusing on prepping the trigger before breaking the shot. Like, if your gun has a four pound trigger pull you should have 3-1/2 pounds of pressure on the trigger. That in effect turns the gun into a super-target pistol with a 1/2 pound trigger pull. That's all the energy you're applying to fire the gun that could possibly pull it off target.

Begin practicing by taking up the slack in the trigger action until you hit the "link" resistance point, then prep the trigger with almost enough energy to fire the gun but not quite, then apply that last little bit of energy to fire the gun. Hold the trigger to the rear while you hand cycle the gun to reset the trigger. Slowly let the trigger forward until you feel the trigger reset. If you're firing a Glock or 1911, at that point there will be no slack to re-uptake since the "link" point is in the same place going both forward and back with no re-uptake travel. Then you're back to doing the same thing again: prep the trigger, fire the shot, hold the trigger to the rear, cycle the action, hit the link..... Do that several thousand times to get it into your mind and your muscle memory where the link is, what it feels like to hit it, and how hard you can prep the trigger without actually firing the gun.

Eventually, in both dry and live fire, you want to start making the time interval you hold the trigger to the rear shorter and shorter. Eventually you'll get to the point you've got the trigger reset and prepped while the gun's still in recoil. If you can do that, and get the gun tracking consistently so it comes right back to the same point every time - a completely different topic - you can fire the gun as fast as it comes down out of recoil and still be accurate.

Hope that helped.

[slickrick]

Hi Jerry, i'm sure i'm using the pad of my trigger finger, but thanks still. Hi Duane, i'm now shooting a shadow for the past 3 months, used a glock before with no such problem. Will definitely try your suggestion, thanks!

[Duane Thomas]

Yer welcome.

[VegasOPM]

Low and left usually means "anticipating recoil" for me. When I get in a hurry I tend to react to the recoil before it happens, which causes the rounds to hit low and left.

[RogerT]

Hi all. Interesting thread and I feel like I have a similar problem, perhaps?

I switched from shooting revolver and Glock to a SIG P228 recently.

The SIG is pretty much stock, but I did not like the plastic grips, they felt slippery.

Inspired by another thread I stippled them, and, they are NOT slippery any more

But now my hits are going low and to the left! Four inches at 15 yards...... and I'm really trying to shoot accurate.

I missed the small plates until I started to aim high and to the right.

Q: Will my hits be centered again if I shoot more with the new grip or should I remove the stippling?

[Jake Di Vita]

Q: Will my hits be centered again if I shoot more with the new grip or should I remove the stippling?

Stippling has nothing to do with accuracy (neither does your grip for that matter). This is strictly a trigger control issue.

[SA Friday]

Hi all. Interesting thread and I feel like I have a similar problem, perhaps?

I switched from shooting revolver and Glock to a SIG P228 recently.

The SIG is pretty much stock, but I did not like the plastic grips, they felt slippery.

Inspired by another thread I stippled them, and, they are NOT slippery any more

But now my hits are going low and to the left! Four inches at 15 yards...... and I'm really trying to shoot accurate.

I missed the small plates until I started to aim high and to the right.

Q: Will my hits be centered again if I shoot more with the new grip or should I remove the stippling?

I've carried a P228 for my work for 10 years now. I would bet your problem is more about your grip than anything else. Every time I see someone throwing rounds to the left with a P228, it's because they are locking in their strong hand thumb with their weak hand. Pull the thumb out and stack on top of the weak hand.

[RogerT]

OK, I indeed use the strong hand thumb to hold the gun when shooting SHO, I will try to let it "hang loose" on the side of the gun. With a twohand grip I tend to let the support hand thumb lock over the other thumb, will try to not do that and see if I'm back on target again.

Tonight we got three inches of snow and it's ten degrees below freezing, so I'll wait till the weekend and see if the weather improves before I head out to the range........

[Jake Di Vita]

OK, I indeed use the strong hand thumb to hold the gun when shooting SHO, I will try to let it "hang loose" on the side of the gun. With a twohand grip I tend to let the support hand thumb lock over the other thumb, will try to not do that and see if I'm back on target again.

Once again, your grip is totally irrelevant to your accuracy. If your sights are on target when the bullet leaves the barrel, it is impossible to miss. This is true regardless of your grip on the gun (it could even be upside down, firing with your pinky).

[SA Friday]

OK, I indeed use the strong hand thumb to hold the gun when shooting SHO, I will try to let it "hang loose" on the side of the gun. With a twohand grip I tend to let the support hand thumb lock over the other thumb, will try to not do that and see if I'm back on target again.

Once again, your grip is totally irrelevant to your accuracy. If your sights are on target when the bullet leaves the barrel, it is impossible to miss. This is true regardless of your grip on the gun (it could even be upside down, firing with your pinky).

So, for example, if you 'grip' the gun between the tip of your left thumb and the tip of your left index finger and then pull the trigger with the tip of your right index finger.... .

'Totally irrelevant' is an overstatement of theory, and grip can be very relevant in the process. The grip can affect movement in the gun. "try this grip and I think the firearm will be more stable" is much more effective than "stop moving the gun as you pull the trigger".

WHY they are missing is because the sights are not on target when the bullet leaves the barrel, but WHY are the sights not on target at that moment? I doubt it's because he's intentionally moving the gun. So, it's the unintentional results I am attempting to assist in resolving.

[VegasOPM]

Benchrest the gun first to make sure that it is indeed hitting point of aim. If that is the case, then it is a trigger control issue.

There is probably something happening between the time that the sights are aligned on the target, and the sear trips. Calling shots and seeing the sight lift are pretty high level skills. I'm still betting that it is an anticipation of recoil. Align the sights on target, start pulling back the triger while counting to 5... do your best to take up 1/5th of the slack on each number. You aren't going to be able to do it- the purpose of the exercise is to give give your brain something to do other than anticipating the recoil. If that is successful once, keep at it until you don't need to do it anymore.

[Jake Di Vita]

So, for example, if you 'grip' the gun between the tip of your left thumb and the tip of your left index finger and then pull the trigger with the tip of your right index finger.... .

Yeah...if you don't move the sights, the bullet will go exactly where you want.

'Totally irrelevant' is an overstatement of theory, and grip can be very relevant in the process. The grip can affect movement in the gun. "try this grip and I think the firearm will be more stable" is much more effective than "stop moving the gun as you pull the trigger".

WHY they are missing is because the sights are not on target when the bullet leaves the barrel, but WHY are the sights not on target at that moment? I doubt it's because he's intentionally moving the gun. So, it's the unintentional results I am attempting to assist in resolving.

There is a difference between the meanings of grip and trigger control. Regardless of how incorrectly they are gripping the gun - this is a trigger control issue.

The sights are not on the target because he moved them - whether intentionally or not it really doesn't matter as the end result is the same. The proper correction is to dry fire the gun, until the sights don't move and then reproduce that in live fire. This is very easily doable without changing the grip. By telling him to change his grip, you are literally not explaining the issue to him at all, because it isn't the grip that's causing the problem. It is the process of pulling the trigger.