Neil Beverley Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 In another thread kurtm started to discuss a target design he had seen in Italy. At the ESC match they used targets based on a variation of a target that I designed in the UK and which we have been using very successfully in matches for some 6 years now. Later I'll add some commentry about the design considerations. Sun 14 September - NOW ADDED! The targets are very easy to reset and consistent every time. Reset time is very fast. The spacing between other targets and in particular the relationship with penalty targets is very precise. They always fall when properly hit and there is no doubt that they have fallen, no turning sideways. They still work well at longer distances. They are suitable for birdshot and buckshot. IPSC rules for SG permit any size of plate between a minimum of 15cms x 15cms (5.9 x 5.9 inches) and a maximum of 45cms x 30cms (17.7 x 11.8 inches). Recommended sizes are 15cms x 15cms, 20cms x 15cms and 25cms x 20cms. In the UK we mostly use 20 x 15 (say 8 x 6 ins) and some 25cms x 20cms (10 x 8 ins). Please note that the standard base of 15 x 15 cms (6 x 6 inches) has been thoroughly tested and works easily up to the 25 x 20 cms target. The base will probably work with larger sizes as well but we haven’t tried it. If you use rectangular targets they will sit in the base just as easily horizontally as well as vertically. Providing you maintain consistency in a match this adds to the versatility of the target. If you paint one side red and leave the other side natural colour then at club level and for practice days you have interchangeable shoot and penalty targets to be used to suit. This adds to the flexibility of the target use. “Splashback” is minimal and the range crew in particular are grateful for this. I’m no engineer but I’m sure that this is as a result of the forward angle of the plates and possibly because when they are hit they travel backwards along with the shot and the shot isn’t reflected back up range. After repeated use you will find that lead fouling starts to build up in the locating slots but this is easily cleaned out with a screwdriver or similar tool. Over the years that we have been using them I haven’t noticed any significant warping of the plates. The surfaces remain nicely flat. These images show 4 holes in the corners so they can be nailed to timber supports, benches beams, etc. The holes are 7mm in diameter (I would suggest 0.3 in equivalent) and we’ve found that they can be staked into position into the ground using 15cm / 6 in nails or similar pegs. They usually stay firm in place for up to say 70-80 competitors. The bases have also seen short spikes (2) welded to the base to they can be hammered into the ground or longer single spikes to raise the height to suit. All methods work well but for storage the targets as pictured take up very little room. With an early prototype I tried simply welding the front posts in place but it soon became clear that they weren’t going to last long so I had the posts set into the base and then welded and there hasn’t been a single front post dislodged in 6 years of use. It should go without saying that all welding is kept away from the locating slot. I chose to use a round front post as being the most suitable but others have tried using a blade angled up from front to back at about 45 degrees. This design was only welded in place and didn’t catch on. I also decided to use 2 front posts whereas 1 would probably do. I reckoned that 2 would be more reliable and I was able to move them to the sides rather than a single post in the centre. I figured that most shots are aimed at the centre so up close the posts don’t get hit much anyway and at distance there is only a small surface area on the posts and the shot pattern has spread out significantly. Square front posts could be used but only if set at an angle of 45 degrees, so from the front a diamond shape is presented. A flat square post parallel to the target creates an opportunity for more splashback as the post stays firmly in place and will reflect the shot. They would also create greater resistance to impact which is more likely to disturb the base. However, if set at 45 degrees my logic tells me that the shot will “slip” past and onto the target instead, Finally this also avoids too much surface contact and possible resistance as the target “twists” out of the slot when shot. On this subject I noticed during the prototype testing that the front lower edge of the strike plate was slightly snagging on the front posts when falling so I added a small radius to the edge and the strike plates now exit smoothly every time. Make sure you add this radius to the top and bottom and the side as well if you are likely to use them horizontally. Honestly guys, it’s not worth skipping this in the manufacturing process – it really does make a difference. On the first batch that I had produced I chose to only use a back retaining lug 5mm (0.2 ins) high. I suspect, but haven’t proved, that this could be a little higher. If made a little higher it may give a better still retention but if too high may start to snag the target as it falls. What we have noticed is that the only wear on the targets is on this back lug and the older ones have been burred over quite a lot. Some are becoming a bit of a problem for resetting now but after 6 years heavy usage I’m not too unhappy. They just need some maintenance on these lugs and they should be good for another 5 or so years. If I personally had some more produced I would discuss with the engineering company either using a harder material to resist this burring or I’ve also considered fitting a threaded bolt and then using a large nut which could be replaced when it starts to get worn. Either way I’m sure that this is a very minor issue that hasn’t really been too much trouble and can be fixed anyway. If the plates are set fairly close to where they are likely to be shot from they will fly backwards a short distance. To avoid them tumbling into another target and accidentally knocking it over it is possible to drill a hole in the strike plate and bolt on a length of suitable chain which is then staked to the ground or otherwise fixed in place. This limits how far the plate travels and avoids all problems as described above. We have found that this is best fixed to the low outside edge of the plates. Heavier (thicker) plates could be used if the locating gap is adjusted accordingly and the targets wouldn’t travel so far but may become harder to knock over at distance. Based on my experiences to date I reckon that the 10mm (0.39 ins) steel that I chose has been close to ideal. Kurtm has suggested that these targets might also work for rifle and handgun and my only concerns would be the front posts. I’m happy to let some other brave sole take up the challenge. A detailed drawing can be found in the IPSC 2004 Shotgun rule book – Appendix C3. It’s also in the 2003 rule book under a different appendix number. I have the original drawing as an AutoCAD .dwg drawing if anyone wants it and lets me have their email address and I’ll happily forward it on. Don’t expect a brilliant technical drawing, I’m an enthusiastic amateur rather than an engineer and the success of the target has been more luck than sound technical knowledge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Neil. If you use the IMG tag, then the the piccys will display directly.... rather than having to link to one at a time. O and btw... dont be so modest.... the pictures are ok Best Wishes Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted September 13, 2003 Author Share Posted September 13, 2003 Hi Dave I had tried using the IMG tag but I was getting an error message but I've sorted it now. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Neil, The pictures are not correct, you need top cover the plates in mud, clay, dust etc to match the surrounding ground so they are camoflaged and confuse poor soles like me. Maybe a sparkely light system on each to locate them in dark welsh forests would help as well. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 NeilB: I didn't say the cool target I saw in Italy,.. I said the cool target YOU designed! They are cool and easy. Benelli2 take note!! These are the most consistent targets to reset I have ever seen. They also lean forward just a bit so no fragments back twards the shooter. I think they would be a great pistol target.... and rifle if done in armor, and the great thing about them is they are so cheap to make!! I say we all chip in a nickle for every target we make like this and give it to Neil..... then he won't have to sell swag anymore Mike45: Change to a fiber optic front sight...preferably green....that way you will have something to look at while you run by those targets. It has always worked for me, and I never get bored because all I can see is green. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benelli2 Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Kurt, noted, how many shall I build, you know how we have all the spare time in the world. I think you me and Salmon should offer a 3 day joint shotgun class, give a perspective from all angles, what do you say, besides I just like shooting with you guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted September 14, 2003 Author Share Posted September 14, 2003 Hi All,, I've now added extensive notes about the targets to the original posting. I will fully understand if you nod off while reading through! Kurt, I really like your idea about sending a nickle a time but you must surely have typed it wrong and really meant for each time shot? Otherwise I guess I'll have to continue selling swag for some time yet. Anyone want to buy large quantities of inflatable Bonking Sheep? A guy's got to earn a living! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 How cute are they Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted September 14, 2003 Author Share Posted September 14, 2003 Very! Flossy, as she likes to be called, is particularly cute, takes great care over her appearance and never nags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 May I say.... As the proud owner of Flossy s/n 236185 I would like to report a problem. Flossy has developed the endearing quality going down when I least expect it.. Is this a design fault .... as I would normaly like at least 2 mins warning. Perhaps you could send me Bo Peep with a flock of Flossys so I can see if they are all blessed with this trait ? Yours Little boy blue. P.S My horns broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orimar3 Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 From steel target plates to bonking inflatable sheep....this is turning out to be an interesting group of people on the SG forums. Uhhm, Dave, would you happen to have photos of Flossy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 Benelli2: Count me in for giving the class! I can make my own time , so if you and Todd really want to, I can make it happen at my end! Did you get my E-Mail about the match? It was fairly long, I hope it didn't put you to sleep! As for the targets... the plates are just squares so I have them cut at the metal shop. The bases are just squares ..so once again metal shop. Now comes the hard part, beer for the friend that welds!! If we do a class with Todd, we will have to look for "Flossy" etched into his shotgun stock!! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 Uhhm, Dave, would you happen to have photos of Flossy? Just by chance... I had this photo in my wallet And in case anyone asks......this thread is still on topic as Flossy is training to be a welder and make plates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 I don't believe this ! Another thread I stumble upon that has developed into a very unexpected direction DaveP: just by chance ? hmmmm ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted September 15, 2003 Author Share Posted September 15, 2003 That's not Flossy, you two timer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 You Germans and your sense of humour crack me up !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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