Max Min loads for 44mag with 180 gr JHP with Win 231

[Epidemic]

I posted elsewhere but this looks like the place I should be looking.  

I have a 44 magnum Ruger Super Blackhawk.  I found some load data in the lyman reloaders guide but the data is a little suspect.  

the load range they specify is 10 to 13 grains winchester 231 with 180 gr JHP.   But everywhere else I find somewhat larger bullets with 9 to 11 gr of the 231.  Is this a safe load or is it dangerous.

12 gr is only like 75% to 80% of case capacity with that bullet.

As I like my face the way it is I am looking for some feedback.

I made up 50 of the suckers and want to know if I should shoot them or should I keep looking for more information.

A suggestion of working my way up to the load is in order but what would I be looking for.   Virtually all of my fired cases look the same to my untrained eyes.

I see the ding from the firing pin and striations in the primer from the area around the firing pin but the primer is not flowing back around the firing pin.  

well any suggestions or confirmation of the safety of this load would be appretiated.

[TDean]

As a general rule of reloading, the lighter the bullet, the more powder can be used.  So 10-13gr in a 180, and 9-11gr in the heavier bullets makes sense when applying  the general rule.

But I can't find any online data for w231, so I can't comment on the exact charge weights.  I hate that!  If I were you I'd go with a powder manufacturer that has online load data,  www.hodgdon.com fro instance.

Don't worry about case capacity!  You don't have to fill the case to get dangerous pressures.  Faster powders will require less space to get the same velocity that slower (more filling) powders get.  You could put 1gr of C4 in there and........(see what I mean?)

Signs of overpressure in a revolver:

-Sticking case extraction (do you have to push reeeeeally hard on the ejector rod when removing fired cases from cylinder?)

-Flattened primers.  The round edges of the primers are no longer there.  The usual edge space between the primer and the brass is filled with the fired primer's metal.

The best place to gather more info on W231 in the 44mag is www.thefiringline.com.  Check out the Revolver section and the Handloading section.

Be safe!

[Epidemic]

The only reason I mention case load density is that I keep hearing that too little charge can cause detonation as well.   I would like to experiment with low charge weights but I am afraid of all the warnings about the powder not burning but effectively all igniting simultaniosly.  

[Epidemic]

The brass I am showing is 3rd time fired brass.

This is the primer view from the 231 12 gr charge.

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/vahlek/vwp?.dir...rc=ph%26.view=t

side view of the bullet

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/vahlek/vwp?.dir...r.jpg%26.src=ph

The oops I made in the garage floor is not shown.

I used a 12 inch round by 15 inch log as my back stop.  But the hole in my floor says it was not enough

(Edited by Epidemic at 4:39 pm on Oct. 22, 2002)

[EricW]

---

Quote: from TDean on 12:11 pm on Oct. 22, 2002

Be safe!

---

...hole in the floor?!!  Is there just something that happens past the Mason-Dixon line that breeds this type of stuff?  

Please stop.  Before you or somebody else gets hurt, just stop.  If you weren't way down in Florida, I'd drive down and just buy your gun and reloading gear from you today.

I'm just stunned...simply stunned...

[Epidemic]

It was not supposed to do that.

It was a materials mis calculation.  The bullet trap was not dense enough to stop the 44 round before the complete penetration was complete.  

I do not think it was all that un reasonable a mistake.  One would assume that 14 inches of pine should easily stop such an anemic round.  I used a sand trap before but it made a huge mess.

The floor quite adequately stopped it though

It is not like the thing was going to go far.  

(Edited by Epidemic at 6:21 pm on Oct. 22, 2002)

[Chriss Grube]

I have to agree with Eric. SAFETY COMES FIRST! I don't mean to sound harsh but get some training on reloading before you hurt yourself or someone else. You act like this shot in the floor was a minor miscalculation. YOU SCREWED UP BIG TIME! Ever see a bullet fragment off hard surface? I've seen 2 guys shoot deer on the highway end up getting frags removed from their leg. Guns are not toys, you don't shoot them in your garage! 14" of soft pine won't stop most centerfire handguns let alone a .44.

[Epidemic]

Live and learn.

I Know not to shoot into 14 inch pine now Geeeeze.

The whole fragment thing is accounted for because the fragments can not come out from under the log That would require a 20 grain fragment to have enough power to cross cut 6 inches of pine in any direction.   That asside I am sure that I will not perform such an act again.   I will probably return to the messy sand trap again.   it is more predictable than wood and does not degenerate with multiple firings.

Any suggestions on home made traps.

Test firing when working up a load is a good idea and I see no reason not to do it in a garage or on a firing range.   Difference being that I could not create the load and test it as quickly on the range.

The trap is the key and I do not see much literature on making a testing trap on line or in the manuals.

(Edited by Epidemic at 5:56 am on Oct. 23, 2002)

[Patrick Sweeney]

The primer doesn't look too bad, but you could be way over pressure and still within the primers limit/ability to hang on.

As for test-fire traps, may I suggest going to your gun club or range?  If you simply must shoot at home, try a 55 gallon drum full of water, with a foot of sand in the bottom.  Stretch a tarp over it to cut down on slap, and use a sturdy stepladder.

You won't get much info from recovered bullets, but you can check primer look and case extraction.

If you load a 240 hard-cast Kieth bullet into your .44, the drum won't stop it.  You'll end up with a big hole in the bottom of your steel drum.  (Don't ask how I know this.)

[ErikW]

Firing a round into a (supposed) bullet trap in your garage is not load testing, it's masturbation.

Load testing is firing multiple rounds over a chronograph for determining velocity (and to some extent, pressure, to be in line with published data) and firing multiple rounds into a target for determining accuracy.

[Epidemic]

Interesting about the hole in the drum.

why not use more sand in the bottom or perhaps a layer of pea gravel under the sand.  I should think that since sand bags are used by the military 2 foot of sand should stop everything through 7.62.

I have a range in my fathers back yard that is where I shoot at targets and frequently miss.  

I have 20 40 and 95 yard views of the backstop followed by 2 miles of swamp.  The backstop is roughly 3 sand filled tires deep by 8 feet tall by 8 feet wide.

But when I am working a load I do it in my garage I just want to do some experimenting

[Epidemic]

What is with the Erics here.   They get obnoxious.

Well load testing is first performed by verifying that my cartrige does not show signs of pressure.   After carefully measuring and approaching max load I want a quick check to verify the load is not abusing the gun.

If I do not like the results I can stop the run of ammo before I commit to 50 or 100 rounds.

I live in the woods on a 17 acre parcel of land shooting in the garage does not risk anyone if you have the right trap heck even if you have the wrong trap.   If you wish to make your rounds run down to your little range then do so.  I want to test the load before running out with a bunch of ammo that will have to be disassembled later because it was to hot.  So I guess I am just masturbating but so be it.

BTW Thank you patrick sweeney for you constructive feedback.

(Edited by Epidemic at 1:20 pm on Oct. 23, 2002)

[EricW]

Well Epidemic, the problem with us Eric(k)s is that we're right and you're wrong.  

Sorry to be so blunt, but that's the way it is.  What you're doing is pretty inadvisable.  Even if you only hurt yourself, that still makes all gun owners look irresponsible and stupid.  The way I see it, your actions affect me in a very demonstrable way, so I reserve the right to pass judgement.  If you have a safe range on your property, not using it instead of your garage is just plain damned lazy.  If you want to develop/engineer a bullet trap, the venue for doing that is on a range with solid berms, not in your garage.  What if a stray bullet killed someone in your house?

I reiterate my offer to buy your gun(s) and equipment on the condition that you sign an agreement that precludes you from this type of activity in the future.

E

P.S.

My apologies to regular forum users for any "pollution" the forum.

[tightloop]

BTW,

it is spelled mastur......

[Epidemic]

Thanks for your help patrick.

[Epidemic]

Impossible for a stray bullet to have hit someone in the house.   Against all laws of physics in the situation.  Then angle chosen first off was chosen with safety in mind.   The ultimate backstop was chosen because it was in no risk of failure.  

I said that it was a mistake.   But at no time was any life at any greater risk than that of you on your range.   The load was chosen and reduced from max based on a lymans manual.   the only mistake was the fact that my decelertating media was well underengineered.

I can understand your concern but the situation was not ever life threatening except from a rupture standpoint which was what I was trying to avoid. by testing this load before going to the range.  The risk of rupture in this situation would have been just as great for you the most brilliant of people.   This was not a load in an iffy gun or a load I just came up with myself.   It was a load that seemed to be somewhat out of line with other guides but for differend wt bullets.  You would have fired this load off hand with out a thought.   I took more precautions In my case. then you would have with this load.

You would have cooked up the load based on the manual and gone to the range and fired it with your chronograph.  

I chose a precursery step.   That I would not recommend be done as I had, because I did not select a good firing media.

[tightloop]

Epidemic

You lend credence to the statement that there are only two kinds of people when we are talking about gun accidents; those who have already had them and those who will.  

The difference is that you have already had yours during your obviously young life.  If you don't do anything else of a similar fashion you might make it to the age where you have a garage of your own to shoot up instead of your fathers.

If you can fend off the sharks in this forum and swim to shore, suggest you post your next thread on a less sensitive topic, or else have on your flame proof underware.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Who among us hasn't had a lapse of judgement?  Or a moment of brain fade?  Heck, I've shot an electrical junction box with a Browning LT-16.  I just won't do it again.

As for the drum, the more sand you put in, the more mud you splash out.  As for your situation, with a range like that, build a window you can open and shoot at the targets without leaving the great indoors.  But then I'm lazy.

[Epidemic]

Well I am going to drop it.

Patrick what about dry/ damp sand versus water covered sand.

As for the garage it is mine as is the house.

PS I am wearing my asbestos underwear now.

There are a few fellar here that are hot tempered  ehh.

I watched them beat up the fellar over the 30 30 smokless versus pyrodex post.  

[tightloop]

One final thought...

Get yourself another tag line, the one you are using now goes so well with the thread you got flamed on, you might want to try something else.

[EricW]

Why wait for the Coroner's report on the inevitable?  Submit your entry now:

http://www.darwinawards.com/misc/submit.html

[Flexmoney]

Epidemic,

I think you have every right to Keep and Bear Arms...if you shoot your house up, that's fine too.  

If you want to ride a motorcycle without a helmet...go for it.

If your shooting a hole in your house somehow effects me...well, I won't like it...but, that is your right.

Do realize that you didn't give your gun enough respect.  I think you have learned from that (everybody here is focused on safety first).

I'd feel like I wasn't doing my part if I didn't mention that you should watch out for lead poisoning.

 

Have Fun!

[Epidemic]

Eric I would appretiate no more input from you.

You are useless and your input is likewise.  Thank you for your cooperation.

Some are interested in safety first and others are interested in attempting to spew venom.  You will of course get people to respect your opinion more if you indicate one instead of bashing.  But some people have what I would call god complex.  Probably lifer millitary wanna be.

I have no problem with constructive critisism but pseudo intellectuals with short fuses usually are of little value in correcting mistakes or teaching.  They should refrain from giving advice as it is worthless.

(Edited by Epidemic at 6:32 pm on Oct. 23, 2002)

[EricW]

Sorry Dude, I checked the ol' 8 ball - and your wish wasn't granted.  Here is my last constructive input for you:

I have spent my life watching my personal liberties erode away because of the kind of ridiculous crap you're pulling.  Amazingly enough, one failure wasn't enough.  You obviously intend to keep on blasting away in your garage until sooner or later you, your corpse, or the unfortunate soul you accidentally nailed with a ricochet will end up on the six o'clock news as a moral tale of why guns and gun owners are bad.  That is the basis of my acidic commentary.  

I realize you are young/and or inexperienced and should treat you with kid gloves, but frankly you need a virtual dope slap to set you straight.  You need to understand that with your rights, come responsibilities.  Deliberately blasting around in your garage trying to see if this or that will stop a 44 Mag falls squarely under the "irresponsible" column.  Your actions have direct and immediate consequences for everbody in the shooting world, so congratulations, you're going to get a heaping spoonful of my opinion about what you're doing.

So ends my "uselessness" for today.  

(Edited by EricW at 8:58 pm on Oct. 23, 2002)

[Epidemic]

Listen you arogant little puss bucket I am probably older than you.  Secondly The firing of a gun in a garage is no different than on a range.  Given the proper precautions.  Which I admittedly did not complete with the log.   A proper trap will not allow a ricochet you moron.   I did not use a proper backstop so I risked being jabbed by little 10 grain pieces of copper jacket or lead.   The risk was minimal but unacceptable yes.   Now you little mental midget you will more than likely be the reason for having our rights taken away as you are obviously all knowing and will shoot someone for forgetting to put down the toilet seat some day.   You will get so angry at your kid for not putting on the toothpaste cap that you decide to end the problem.   Shut upa you face.   If you can tell me how the projectile could have lifted the 15 pound log and doubled back on itself after striking 14 inches of pine and then a concrete floor.   The remaining energy could not throw the fragments more than 2 inches in any direction from the point of impact.  

Now Like I said before I would not use this method again you a$$.   I have looked for constructive suggestions as to an acceptable trap.   Can you offer any suggestions as to how the 44 magnum will pass through a 55 gallon drum filled with water and sand and cause a corpse to be created other than the irrational fear of a gun going off in a garage killing you.  Inside does not make a gun more dangerous.   I bet you cry everytime a ballistics lab fires their weapon into a water trap in the lab as well.

Now please go away you are annoying, obnoxious, rude, and generally with out any valuable information.   I think you have made your irrational fears quite apparent.

(Edited by Epidemic at 7:44 pm on Oct. 23, 2002)