Recoil - Kick vs. Flip

[Dowter]

I thought that I might have posted something like this before but I couldn't find it so I'm posting it now.

I was told that at the same PF that a lighter bullet will have more kick recoil(straight back) than flip recoil(muzzle up) and that a heavier bullet will do the opposite - more flip, less kick.  (We're talking about uncompensated guns here.)

This is of course a very broad generality but is it an accurate generality?  If I had an option, I would rather have kick than flip because with less flip I can stay on the target easier.

Thanks for the help.

[BSeevers]

Yes but there is a break even point. Try a 135 gr going 1300 fps in your .40 for a fun time.

[Steve Anderson]

Isn't that backwards?

heavy, slow is less flip for me, than light fast at the same pf in un-comped gun.

a 147 @ 890 is softer and flatter for me than a 115 @1100 or so in 9mm minor.

In the 40, a 200 is much nicer than a 165 at the same pf...for me.

Others disagree.

SA

[George]

My experience with 9mm minor is the same as Steve's. My 147gr LSWC @ 875fps has a lot less muzzle flip, and less sharp recoil impulse than my 124 JHP @ 1040 (both loads are 129pf).

The 124 load locks the slide back consistently on my Glock 17L, whereas the 147 load will not.

I have no experience in calibers other than 9x19 & 9x21. But I definitely get these results in 9mm.

BTW, I have been using the 147gr @ 875 in IPSC minor for over 10 years now because of how soft it shoots. The heavy lead projectile also has more authority on poppers than the 124gr payload at the same PF.

Regards,

[Rich Bagoly]

I agree with  Dowter.  

I ran 255's and 180's in .45 at the old PF.  The 255's felt soft, but the front sight really flipped.  The 180's had a sharp jolt, but the sight did not go as far, and came back faster.  I liked the 180's, but felt I had to practice more than I was able, to stay on top of them.  I eventually compromised with 200's.

[Jake Di Vita]

I've shot 115gr. Blazer, 147gr. reloads, and 124gr. reloads in 9mm all about about 130PF. I've went from shooting a .45 with a PF of 180 to the 9 with only a PF of 130. It only took about 20 rounds before I was attuned to the new load. I'm a firm believer that as long as the flip is constant it doesn't matter how big it is. That is also the main problem I have with people saying minor is so much easier to shoot than major. It isn't.

(Edited by TheItlianStalion at 4:48 pm on Nov. 16, 2002)

[George]

"That is also the main problem I have with people saying minor is so much easier to shoot than major. It isn't."

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Not to be contentious or anything, but I don't choose minor because it is easier to shoot. I choose minor for my Glock 17L because that is the right power factor for the configuration it's in. I shoot my thuddy8 snooper in major if it suits me to use that platform. I never said minor is easier to shoot, in fact it is harder, for reasons other than recoil/sight recovery.

I still stand on my experience with the heavier payload giving me faster sight recovery (at equal PF). The fact that the slide doesn't lock with the heavy bullet says that slide velocity is down, and that means less muzzle flip for sure.

As I mentioned earlier, my comparisons were based on a heavy bullet vs. a lighter bullet at the same PF (129). I would tend to extrapolate that to mean that the same results will be had with higher PF's, but I do not have any actual data to support that, and will have to look to other folks experience for confirmation, or denial here.

Regards,

[Jake Di Vita]

I didn't mean to imply you thought it was easier, I was just saying people in general. Around here, 9mm is referred to as a "childrens caliber."

[George]

Hey there ItlianStalion,

I am taking nothing personally here so don't get me wrong, but the "childrens caliber" thing, sure does sound like the old "mouse gun" thing that I used to hear while shooting an AR-15 in NRA High Power Rifle back in the late nineteen hunnert and eighties.

Now if you walk up to the line at any High Power Rifle event, all you can see in every direction is the little black rifle, interspersed with a few bolt action shooters (Yeah, OK, there are still some M1A shooters doing very well too, but there are no new M1A shooters coming up, and they are getting thinner & thinner).

The "mouse gun" is the real (hands down) winner in that competitive venue now, and always was. It was just waiting for technology to catch up with it. Shooting the Sierra 69grainer at 600yds back then was real humbling and I paid a certain price in humility to think different at that time. But it was definitely worth it in the long run to get the chance to see the same guys who chanted the "rodent rifle" routine back then, raving about how well their AR-15's shoot now.

I have a funny feeling about the niner now, and wonder what time will tell for it now that it is in more widespread usage than any other pistol cartridge in history. There is no question that the itsy bitsy teeny neener can do very well in competition (in any of it's flavors). And in another unrelated venue, there is nothing childish about a 124gr JHP @ 1250-1275 fps.

No slight intended, but I believe that it is not so much the tool that matters, but the tool user's proficiency with the tool of his choice that will ultimately cut the mustard (or not).

BTW, I only need six more posts to get to fifty and stop being a "gatherer". So, I figure if we can get a little more mileage out of this here thread, then I'm there :-)

Regards,

(Edited by George at 10:38 pm on Nov. 16, 2002)

[Jake Di Vita]

"No slight intended, but I believe that it is not so much the tool that matters, but the tool user's proficiency with the tool of his choice that will ultimately cut the mustard (or not)."

I couldn't agree more. I know people who can destroy we with the .45, .40, .38, and the 9. I don't attribute to it being an easier or better caliber, just that they are more proficient than I am, and I work very hard to change that. Shooting a .40 185gr bullet at about 690 FPS is like a capgun. If that person beats me, all that means is I have to work harder, not change calibers.

[George]

Right you are there. Practice is everything, and I know I am not doing enough lately. So I had better shut up, and put up.

I am going to log off and go do some dry firing before I learn to type better than I shoot ;~)

Regards,

[vluc]

124 grain MG gives me push in the G34 and flip in the SIG 226 (or is it vice versa...each is different).  So much may also be dependant on the tool used.

[Steve Anderson]

My feeling is that powder creates recoil.

I try to use a combination that uses the least amount of powder for a given power factor.

This means heavy bullets and fast powders.

3.3 titegroup under a 147 in minor nine

4.5 universal under a 200 in major .40 (1.135 oal)

I think TG is too fast for the 200, the published load data doesn't make major at max loads.

Then again, I shot a match with 115 @ 1100 with clays powder and it was fine.

Under match pressure, none of this minutiae means dinky-doo.

So much of the gear/load thing is psychological. It's definitely REAL, but the benefits are largely mental. If we BELIEVE our load is the flattest and softest, it will be.

SA

[George]

"My feeling is that powder creates recoil."

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Steve, that just about sums it up as far as I am concerned.

More pressure = more recoil. More recoil = more muzzle flip.

Nothing else speaks as well to the reason why the 147 grain load will not lock my 17L back, but the 124 grain load will (at the same PF).

Makes sense to me.

Regards,