Safe area-no ammo handling or no ammo?

[Cherryriver]

One new rule this year in USPSA that would be good to bring over to IDPA is the requirement that the range provide an unloading area or table. That way, the hot guns are concentrated in that specific area and separated from the practicing and gunsmithing at the regular safe area.

The unloading area is to be separate from the safe area- for our Indiana club, we just add one more table about five yards down from the safe area, facing the same berm.

Bill

[GunsAreUs]

One new rule this year in USPSA that would be good to bring over to IDPA is the requirement that the range provide an unloading area or table. That way, the hot guns are concentrated in that specific area and separated from the practicing and gunsmithing at the regular safe area.

The unloading area is to be separate from the safe area- for our Indiana club, we just add one more table about five yards down from the safe area, facing the same berm.

Bill

Cherryriver - that's an excellent idea. However, as it now stands any time a gun and ammo come together it must be under the command and supervision of a Safety Officer. (S 8. .......the contestant’s firearm may be loaded or unloaded only under the direction of the SO.......) During a match allowing an individual to be unsupervised with a loaded gun in his/her hands even in a designated unloading area would violate that principle. I know full well that this happens all the time when someone unloads their carry gun in their car prior to a match. That's not a safe thing to do and having an unloading table or area would neatly solve that problem but would probably require a modification of the safety rules.

During our club's first time shooter briefing before anything is started the briefer asks if anyone is carrying a loaded gun. I'm amazed at the number of times a hand goes up. Our procedure is to ask another SO to take the individual to an empty bay and get them cleaned up. The SO goes through the gun clearing commands with the shooter, tells them to keep the gun in the holster, to go back to the briefing and to have a good time.

[atbarr]

Welcome!

Stay Safe,

A.T.

[Cherryriver]

GunsAreUs-

Yes, that's so. My suggestion is for IDPA to consider adopting the USPSA item.

The practical reality is that it has worked, well and safely in USPSA, and I believe it to be the safest alternative available.

In the car, or at the trunk lid, as is common, is indeed not so good. The unloading table is out in the open, visible, able to be observed and supervised from a distance, and in a safe part of the property. A good compromise.

[jsykes]

Its interesting I just stumbled upon this topic. At a match a couple weeks ago at a club that I've only shot at a couple of times, I was pretty severely scolded by an older shooter for having BOXED ammo in my range bag while I was putting my weapon back into the bag after the match was over. My loaded mags were left completely away from the safe area, as I have done at all the other places I've shot.

This RO laid into me pretty good and threatened to throw me out if it ever happened again and he was "breaking the rules by not throwing me out as it was." Thanks for the favor buddy.

I explained to him that every other place I had shot at (three other clubs) they did not care if there was ammo in boxes as long as there was none on my person or handled in that area.

He would hear nothing of this and insisted that the other clubs were not following proper rules or "didnt know I was doing it."

Anyway, without getting into a fight, I told him that was not the case, they knew what they were doing and I honestly did not realize they did it differently as it was never gone over during any safety meeting. But that I would ABSOLUTELY have no problem following their range rules and that it would never happen again. I was VERY cordial during the entire thing, though I was not being given the same respect.

Anyway, I have no intention of trying to show them this or insist that the other places were indeed following the letter of the law, but its good to know and see that it does vary at some places and that I'm not the unsafe renegade I was made out to be.

I did want to ask him if he thought that rounds would magically leave their sealed packaging and make it into a mag that was not even present at the table and somehow end up in the chamber and going off. I held my tongue though. While I agree its up to every club to do what they feel is best, I'm of the mind that as long as there are no mags or ammo on your person, that having it boxed up in the range bag while removing or returning your weapon to the bag is in no way an unsafe practice and would not result in any kind of AD. You'd have to really try to get that ammo out of the box and into the gun, and if thats your intention, no rule will keep it from happening.

[Jim Norman]

its up to every club to do what they feel is best...

Actually this is what leads to problems.

A club says that you can't have ANY ammo in the safe area, but fails to actually cordon off said area...

Another club says ammo in bag OK, but NO to loaded mags

Yet another club says no handling, mas on belt, in bag OK, just don't touch (Which is actually what USPSA has as a rule)

So if "its up to every club to do what they feel is best," you wind up with problems. IDPA needs to determine a rule and all clubs that want to run a match under IDPA sanction need to abide.

That said, there needs to be a way for clubs that have a board that insists on a stricter rule to not lose the ability to hold amatch. This can be handled very simply by cordoning off the area to define it and posting signs that spell out the rule.

Jim

[Bones]

From the IDPA Rule book:

The Safe Area is a place to handle UNLOADED guns. NO AMMUNITION may be handled in a Safe Area. (unfortunately, emphasis needs to be added for clarity)

From Websters:

handle (v) to hold and move repeatedly.

Therefore it is impossible to handle ammunition that is not in your hand - get it "hand" >>> "handle"...?

Why is this confusing or contentious?

We are the architects of our own fatuity.

Craig

Edited December 15, 2008 by Bones

[Cherryriver]

The signage is the key.

There's no way for a new attendee to know what the rules are. Of the six or so clubs I frequent, nearly all permit ammunition in the safe area as long as it's not "handled". So, a person who goes around in that circle happens upon a club that doesn't permit any at all, and he acts within the bounds he thought he knew, and suddenly it's trouble.

It's unfair to expect your guests to just automatically know what's the lay of the land. They should be told, by clear signage that can't be missed. Otherwise, there's no justification for getting angry at the offender.

Anger is what I detect in that previous post, and I'm sad to say I've seen it at my own club. With utterly no signs posted at all, a poor, unsuspecting IDPA competitor suffered much the same treatment described above.

There's two things wrong with that: the lack of information, and the antagonistic tone. It's not as though the guy had been snapping his gun at passersby with a magazine in his off hand. He just went to the table and began normal unbagging.

What I saw was an over-reaction, as if something major had happened. It hadn't, and he shouldn't have been roughed up like that. But that's a whole different topic.

Any facility open to the public, like a club on match day, is obligated to make the rules available before things get nasty. Not the Four Rules, of course, but the regular range rules.

Signage costs money, but it's cheaper than trouble.

[buddy_fuentes]

I can play by the rules if I know the rules. Every place I have shot requires you to go to the safe area to holster or bag your weapon and no ammo is handled in that area. If it is different, the club should notify everyone as they come to sign up. I have no problem complying to any of the rules listed above for safety purposes. I just need to know, before I go to the safe area, if there is additional safety rules.

Safety First.

Buddy

[Glshooter]

For the clubs that say no ammo anywhere near the safe area. If I am to bag my gun at the safe area, what do I do with the boxes of ammo in my range bag? Am I required to take out the ammo boxes, leave them somewhere else and then retrieve them after I have bagged my gun? That's not realistic.

[jsykes]

For the clubs that say no ammo anywhere near the safe area. If I am to bag my gun at the safe area, what do I do with the boxes of ammo in my range bag? Am I required to take out the ammo boxes, leave them somewhere else and then retrieve them after I have bagged my gun? That's not realistic.

That is exactly what the club in my above example made me do. After the lecture about how dangerous it was to have boxed ammo in a bag while bagging my gun, I was told to take it all out of the bag and leave it in another area, then move to the safe area, bag my gun and then go back and retrieve all of my ammo.

Pain in the ass, but if thats what they want, I'll oblige them. It just would have been nice to have had it spelled out more clearly and also not have someone approach me so antagonistically to tell me.

Edited December 16, 2008 by jsykes