Locking The Strong Elbow

[Sam]

Welcome to the forum Gunsmoke!

Discussion at this friendly spot on the web is always centered on training for competitive shooting. When a thread drifts into "real world survival" or "gunfighting tactics" it usually gains the attention of one of the moderators who either gets it back on track or locks the topic. It's not that we are against defensive shooting, many of us carry everyday for work or self defense. It's just that there must be a hundred other sites that do a great job discussing combat tactics and gunfighting, so we don't have to do it here.

Again, welcome! We're glad to have you.

[Flexmoney]

Well said Sam (can you save that on your computer somewhere?).

I think it is safe to say that there aren't many here that use the Weaver.

Most go with what works. Many question what works, often...and experiment.

With good training (practice)...good/bad habits can be replaced by better technique. The practiced technique becomes the reflex. (Or does the reflex become the technique?)

Gunsmoke...interesting post...and welcome aboard.

[AikiDale]

Shooting ISO or Weaver or whatever is fine. The question was about locking the elbows and I suspect it is not a good idea, but even if it is I have an alarm go off when told 'this is what people do under stress' so this is what we should train to do.

I second Sam here, no criticism intended for the ARMY or Mas Ayoob training methods, both entities have more shooting knowledge than I.

Generally facing ones work, keeping balanced and relaxed with the hands in front of ones center line and elbows bent (down,) with the hands higher than the elbows and one foot slightly forward seems to be one of the humans strongest and most adaptable positions. It is the best posture for most martial arts applications, pushing cars and I suspect for shooting. Locking the elbows may be advisable for shooting some of the time or all of the time, but I want empirical testing!

Sorry if I led you to believe I was advocating Weaver over Iso postures.....that was not my intention.

Dale

[Gunsmoke]

My appologies, I was not aware that defensive shooting was discuraged here.

I should clarify that when I teach someone to shoot I base the prefered stance on the reason they wish to shoot. With The bullseye shooter, a personalized weaver like bountyhunter's would be much more comfortable while holding a handgun up for an hour. Meanwhile on the opposite extreme, I teach defensive shooters to work with the base that they will default to when their thinking "Oh, my ***, they want to kill me!" As for me, my profession dictates that I learn the latter so I'm a little partial to it. Sorry.

[Skywalker]

So back to the "Locking Elbow" issue.

I can relate what my experience is right now, because I went through some testing of it right these days.

A teammate of mine, who happens to be a declining GM (LEO with too short time to train these days), has suggested I change my shooting stance (iso, elbows slightly downwards bent) to a straight arms-locked elbows stance, that works best for him.

I wanted to give it a try, and spent 2/3 training sessions looking for (actually feeling) the differences in these two stances.

My feelings about this is that with straight arms and locked elbows, most of the recoil is dampened through the shoulders, and to me it gives a snappier gun with more muzzle lift.

It's like the gun, through the arms lever, is pivoting on the shoulder joint.

On the contrary, when I shoot with slighly bent arms and unlocked elbows, part of the recoil is dampened by the elbow joint, and the whole shooting feels softer, allowing for less muzzle flip and faster recovery time.

In the end, I got better split times on the second shot on target with slighly bent arms and unlocked elbows.

But, then again, it is my personal experience, and might not work for anybody else.

[AikiDale]

I propose a test. Next time at the range lets all do the same drill changing only whether the elbows are locked or unlocked. We should each do it both ways. We want to determine which is A: most accurate for repeat shots and B: fastest I believe. Would a 10 yard Bill Drill recording time and points on an IPSC target be appropriate?

[Loves2Shoot]

Try running and shooting with your arms locked (bouncy, bounce, bounce). That should tell you all you need to know. I want a position where I can shoot anywhere, anytime.

[Gunsmoke]

I've never tried to shoot while "running" The best I would consider trying is a speed walk and when done correctly with knees slightly bent and rolling the feet it is possible to walk very quickly witout any vertical movement in the upper body.

[Skywalker]

Aikidale,

I just did what you are proposing, to determine locking elbows was not effective for me.

I repeatedly did the basic "draw and shoot two" drill on a 8" plate @ 15m, with both locked and ulocked elbows.

My final comment, after testing both methods several times (I mean more than 15 magazines - 18-rounder - shot either method), is that locking elbows is not going to work for me.

Edited September 2, 2003 by Skywalker67

[AikiDale]

Aikidale,

I just did what you are proposing, to determine locking elbows was not effective for me.

I repeatedly did the basic "draw and double tap" drill on a 8" plate @ 15m, with both locked and ulocked elbows.

My final comment, after testing both methods several times (I mean more than 15 magazines - 18-rounder - shot either method), is that locking elbows is not going to work for me.

I just love empirical evidence. I won't be able to test this myself until this weekend but I look forward to seeing which works best for me.

Thanks for the input Skywalker67,

Dale

[AikiDale]

I've never tried to shoot while "running" The best I would consider trying is a speed walk and when done correctly with knees slightly bent and rolling the feet it is possible to walk very quickly witout any vertical movement in the upper body.

I've never been able to hit much running. In IDPA or IPSC matches the rolling walk you describe works very well. When practicing defensive shooting I have been known to throw some 'suppressive fire' in the general direction of the targets while running for cover but I seldom hit one.

[Loves2Shoot]

Aiki,

Practice it enough and you don't have to worry about what/where your feet are, your eyes will tell you when to break the shot and I know MANY people who can shoot targets 5-8 yards on the dead run acurately. When you focus enough on the shot the body will do what it needs to do to get ready for it.

Gunsmoke,

You may feel like you can keep perfectly still, but the further away your hands are from your centerline, the more they will move. Hold a two foot stick pointing straight away in front of you. Now hold a 4 foot straight away from you. Which wiggles more? They wiggle about the same, but the further away from the center point the more you can see it.

[AikiDale]

There you go, Practice! Doesn't anyone believe in magic beans anymore?

[Loves2Shoot]

LOL

I tried the beans, then I realized practice worked better

[Gunsmoke]

I thought I was making the magic beans on my Dillon, by the hundreds.

After all, they do help improve my aim, make me feel better and make bad guys go away too.

[InTheBlack]

Here's some food for thought WRT individual differences.

Stand up straight, don't drop your head. Now draw and "punch out" into a reasonably Iso position. Does it FEEL like your arms are horizontal to the ground?

Now pay attention to the how high off the ground your fists are.

I think that everyone will have a different "punch out height" and this will affect their degree of elbow lock.

When I do this, my hands are a bit below my chin. This is way too low to have the sights in my line of vision; hence I tend to drop my head. Still too low, though.

Hence I have to raise my hands-- which extends my arm and/or rolls my shoulder forwards. Now my arms are pointing upwards. I can feel the difference in muscle tension in my upper arm & deltoids. My elbow tends to lock.

I don't like this, so instead of feeling a "straight punch out" when I draw, I raise my arms while extending, and this is easier to do with a bent elbow, and tends to result in a final position with my elbow more or less bent. It feels like draw, raise in a "collapsed iso" position, then push forwards.

My preferred "low ready" position is with my elbows touching my ribcage at the sides of my body. Others may prefer extended arms, angled down.

IMO movement requires less Iso and more bent elbow/Weaver. Since I'm currently training for motion, I'm "defaulting" to a more aggressive stance with a bend in my arms.

A purely competetive shooter can choose, depending on whether the first shots of the stage are stationary or not. IDPA types who look at it as "training" might choose not to do so.s