What brass are ya'll using, super or supercomp brass?

[kmca]

I had the problem occasionally and thought it was springs and/or followers so I replaced them and still have the problem. Weird thing is I have a big stick of unknown make (guy I bought the gun from already had it) that works perfectly! All four of my short mags (para factory) jam like this on occasion but only when loaded with more than 10 or so rounds loaded. Weird problem I just thought the semi rim may be causing (or adding to) the problem. What does it take to make a S_I mag work in the para, if it will work at all?

I have some MecGar mags with ISMI springs, Dawson base pads and Para followers and they give me no grief. I can't get the Arradando followers to work at all in those mags. I have his teflon followers in my Sti for Para mags and they work very well.

To use a standard STI magazine, Rich at Canyon Creek altered a Para mag catch so it would work with standard STI magazines. All it took was a phone call and IIRC about $45. Had the mag catch in my hand with a bill about a week later. I like the way the man does his work.

I think you'll have a difficult time finding STI for Para mags. I've got a few and I'm keeping my eyes open for more. I get one more bullet in the MecGar's. The taper on the STI's is a bit steeper so in theory reloads should be easier, though I've never found this to be the case. If I were you, I'd try the MecGar for $20, replace the spring and follower (I'm fond of Dawson's) and use the follower that comes with it. If you do use Dawson's +2 basepads, you'll probably need to use the Arradondo inserts to keep the spring from catching on the junction of basepad and mag tube.

Good Luck!

[superdude]

correct. order the 9mm magazine, Para catalog number PNM9 (or at Brownells (Brownells.com) catalog number 199-000-348 - where i bought mine, though the new style came with a P18-9 i bought about a year ago).

Pictures of Para's old and new magazine design are here: http://www.38super.net/Pages/Para%20Magazines.html

Para slightly changed the magazine design for the current production 9mm magazines that allows it to form a single column of rounds lower in the magazine. they might have made the change to the current 38 Super magazines as well, but i have not seen those so i cannot comment on them one way or the other. the photo at CDNN shows the older style magazine. whether that represents what they have or not i don't know since the new 38 Super mags might be like the new 9mm mags, and maybe they just haven't updated their photos. in fact, Para still shows they old style mags for the 9mm P-18 on their website (http://www.paraproshop.com/product_989.htm). if you are concerned, you could buy from Brownells, and in any event make sure that you're getting the new design.

the new design. there is a groove indentation in the side of the magazine that forces the cartridges into a single column as it nears the top. the new design extends the groove lower into the magazine. this extended groove effectively eliminates the gap between the top round and the underlying round. as background information, the angle of the top round and underlying rounds can change as more rounds are added to the magazine. this change of angle is unavoidable in 1911 single stack mags (http://www.38super.net/Pages/Overall%20Length.html) but can be reduced/eliminated in some double stack magazines. this change of angle produces a gap between the top round and underlying round that contributes to the nosedive effect since it allows free space for the nose of the top round to easily change its angle when moving forward.

i have the older 38 Super mags, and they work fine with rimless super comp brass. Regardless, the semi-rimmed cases can be a bit of a problem. the small semi-rim of the standard 38 Super case can get positioned in the extractor groove of the underlying round. this produces some additional drag when the round starts to get pushed forward during cycling which can initiate the nosedive.

i see that you have a couple of options.

#1. change to rimless brass. this ought to solve the feeding issue even with your current magazines. my para runs fine even with a bit of nosedive gap from the old magazines. i can't guarantee that yours will - just covering my behind!

#2. change magazines. the new para mags eliminates the nosedive gap and keeps the rounds at the same angle no matter how many rounds are in it (i've measured the angle with up to 20 rounds in them - the angle is the same).

#3. change brass and mags. expensive!!

yes, the $49.00 is awful stiff for new mags and i don't like it either. but i replaced most of my old mags with the new mags in part because i sometimes shoot 9mm in the Para (and the nosedive is worse with a tapered case like the 9mm Luger) and partly because i want the most reliable setup i can have for competition and self defense (i'm building a high cap Para 38 Super/9X23 on an aluminum frame).

38 super comp brass is expensive too and replacing it would be painful as well.

edited to add post to pictures.

Edited July 26, 2008 by superdude

[chendersby]

Ed

I went through this when I built my Para manny years ago. First I would suggest going to the rimless brass as it just feeds smoother. The nosing down problem is because the mags are to wide at the point where they start to narrow near the top. The bullets are to far apart and this causes to much friction between the bullets and the sides of the mags. the mag needs to be tightened a little at this point. I use a small vicegrip clamp. Doesn't take much so don't overdo it as you could make the mags stick in the gun. See attached photos and hope this helps.

[chendersby]

Another pic

[Ed Robinson]

After so much brainstorming, experimenting, and headscratching, I think have actually figured out the problem! Thanks to Superdude I began absorbing a link he gave earlier (38super.net) and found this:LINK

look at figure 6.

And see this quote: "This difference in the angle of the top round and the one immediately under it causes a substantial gap at the front of these cartridges. Look closely and you can see this in Figure 6. This gap is one of the principle causes of nose dive feed failures"

That is exactly what my rounds are doing. As I get more rounds in the magazine (8 or more usually) the angle of the second round increases, leaving a large gap between the nose of the 1st round and the nose of the second round. As I then proceed to load another round, the former first round nosedives on top of the former second round. As the newest round is the pushed into place under the feed lips by the thumb, it too lays nose down following the contour of the rounds underneath. Hence the nose down feed jam (make any sense to you?)

My mags are definitely old style para mags. I will first try squeezing them like chendersby recommended. If that does not quite do the trick, I will order new style para mags from Brownells (which I will at least get a small discount from).

I actually don't mind ordering new brass if I have to BUT I do have about 500 new pieces of standard Super brass that I would hate to shelve. I don't want to spend any more money that I have to but if I HAVE to I will.(Kinda like wives HAVING to buy new shoes or a new purse!)

Thanks again to all who have offered help. Will update hopefully by the end of the week when my new mags get here.

Ed

Edited July 27, 2008 by Ed Robinson

[Ed Robinson]

OK. I decided to try the supercomp brass before spending the bucks on 5 new mags. I ordered from Starline and they were out of stock. Finally got the brass in this week and got some rounds loaded. Bingo! Problem solved. The rimless brass cleared it up. What a relief. Thanks again to Superdude for providing an awesome website on the 38 Super. Can't wait til it's complete (Hurry up dude). Thanks to everone else who chimed in offering their 2 cents. Kind of hard to remember what we did for help before the internet and forums! Thanks again,Ed

[superdude]

Hi Ed,

Glad that solved the problem. you're so right about the internet and forums. great resources!

[skip62]

Hey Ed, just read this and I'm glad you got the problem solved. I do think that there was another issue. Your COL was too short and the rims can lock on each other at that length. Since you still have a lot of Super brass, you could try loading out to 1.250, then the rim can't lock on the next round. Super Comp is definitely more reliable though. I'm just trying to give you more options.