How would you safely handle this prop failure.

[mace85]

I was at a club level steel match this evening, and a situation arose that made me think of how to safely handle this situation. I will explain.

At the buzzer the shooter leaves box A, and steps on an activator. The activator starts a swinger that swings in front of the targets. The the shooter runs to a chair, picks up is gun from the table and starts shooting. The gun starts loaded, flat, and safe. The loaded gun is pointing directly at the swinger from it's start postion.

At the buzzer the shooter steps on the activator and then is stopped because they forgot to reset the swinger. So the RO directs someone to go downrange. The shooter returns to his start box, and waits. After I pointed out that his firearm was still loaded and facing the swinger the RO positions herself behind the gun with her arms up. I understand that if something needs reset the RO can have the shooter put their hands on their head with a holstered gun. But if the gun is pointing directly at the target that is being reset isn't that a massive safety issue? If you were running the stage, how would you handle it?

[Punkin Chunker]

I was at a club level steel match this evening, and a situation arose that made me think of how to safely handle this situation. I will explain.

At the buzzer the shooter leaves box A, and steps on an activator. The activator starts a swinger that swings in front of the targets. The the shooter runs to a chair, picks up is gun from the table and starts shooting. The gun starts loaded, flat, and safe. The loaded gun is pointing directly at the swinger from it's start postion.

At the buzzer the shooter steps on the activator and then is stopped because they forgot to reset the swinger. So the RO directs someone to go downrange. The shooter returns to his start box, and waits. After I pointed out that his firearm was still loaded and facing the swinger the RO positions herself behind the gun with her arms up. I understand that if something needs reset the RO can have the shooter put their hands on their head with a holstered gun. But if the gun is pointing directly at the target that is being reset isn't that a massive safety issue? If you were running the stage, how would you handle it?

Despite what many of the anti-2nd Amendment crowd might think, firearms do not fire themselves. That being said, I personally never feel comfortable walking in front of a firearm unless its action is open or it's disassembled (I don't even care for gun stores where pistols are in display cases pointing toward the customers), and appreciate your point. If the RO was confident about the safety of the loaded weapon, why did she stand behind it before sending someone downrange in front of it?

Before going downrange, have the shooter holster hot and stand as you described. When the range is clear, let the shooter go through his/her set-up and mental prep (some shooters need the ritual of handling/placing their weapon for their zen) again.

[JThompson]

Simple. You don't let a shooter downrange with a gun hot and especially unattended.

EDIT; Okay, the shooter is already downrange and the mistake has been made of leaving the gun unattended with someone downrange... I think at that point it's a common sense issue. Is the shooter still walking down? Is the fix almost complete? The RO was right to stand over the gun, but then a decision needs to be made as to what, if any action should be taken at that point. Say the shooter was already returning when the error was spotted? Telling them to stop would only increase the time spent in front of the gun. If they were on the way down I would stop them. My decision would be made with regard to reducing minmizing the time spent in front of the gun.

I prefer USC before anyone is downrange just like after a COF is clear. I have seen a hot holster with hands safe and an RO watching used too. I prefer the first, but there is nothing that spooks me about second. I just prefer to be a safe as I can. I clear my gun when I shoot alone before going uprange. It takes me about 1s to do so. I do this so as to have the program run the same way every time. I've seen/had ADs in practice and every time I've seen one it was when the program changed.

Edited April 2, 2008 by JThompson

[Punkin Chunker]

Simple. You don't let a shooter downrange with a gun hot.

EDIT; Okay, the shooter is already downrange and the mistake has been made of leaving the gun unattended with someone downrange... I think at that point it's a common sense issue. Is the shooter still walking down? Is the fix almost complete? The RO was right to stand over the gun, but then a decision needs to be made as to what, if any action should be taken at that point. Say the shooter was already returning when the error was spotted? Telling them to stop would only increase the time spent in front of the gun. If they were on the way down I would stop them. My decision would be made with regard to reducing minmizing the time spent in front of the gun.

I prefer USC before anyone is downrange just like after a COF is clear. I have seen a hot holster with hands safe and an RO watching used too. I prefer the first, but there is nothing that spooks me about second. I just prefer to be a safe as I can. I clear my gun when I shoot alone before going uprange. It takes me about 1s to do so. I do this so as to have the program run the same way every time. I've seen/had ADs in practice and every time I've seen one it was when the program changed.

Good morning --

Good thought about if someone is already downrange. In that kind of situation, I tend to go with the idea that if a situation is unsafe, the amount of time exposure (remaining) is irrelevant -- first priority is to make the situation safe, then fix the safety issue, then fix the stage, versus "it's almost reset, hurry up and get back."

If the target's reset and the person is on the way back, there's nothin' left but angst and recrimination at that point. The best decision is not to let it happen in the first place.

[JThompson]

Simple. You don't let a shooter downrange with a gun hot.

EDIT; Okay, the shooter is already downrange and the mistake has been made of leaving the gun unattended with someone downrange... I think at that point it's a common sense issue. Is the shooter still walking down? Is the fix almost complete? The RO was right to stand over the gun, but then a decision needs to be made as to what, if any action should be taken at that point. Say the shooter was already returning when the error was spotted? Telling them to stop would only increase the time spent in front of the gun. If they were on the way down I would stop them. My decision would be made with regard to reducing minmizing the time spent in front of the gun.

I prefer USC before anyone is downrange just like after a COF is clear. I have seen a hot holster with hands safe and an RO watching used too. I prefer the first, but there is nothing that spooks me about second. I just prefer to be a safe as I can. I clear my gun when I shoot alone before going uprange. It takes me about 1s to do so. I do this so as to have the program run the same way every time. I've seen/had ADs in practice and every time I've seen one it was when the program changed.

Good morning --

Good thought about if someone is already downrange. In that kind of situation, I tend to go with the idea that if a situation is unsafe, the amount of time exposure (remaining) is irrelevant -- first priority is to make the situation safe, then fix the safety issue, then fix the stage, versus "it's almost reset, hurry up and get back."

If the target's reset and the person is on the way back, there's nothin' left but angst and recrimination at that point. The best decision is not to let it happen in the first place.

Ya, the best thing is to not let it happen, but once it has I tend to lean toward the least amount of time spent in front of it. One thing we have left unsaid and prob considered common knowledge is not to touch the gun while the guy is downrange. It's better sitting there than someone messing with it. I only threw that in there in case there are some very new people reading this.

I wouldn't tell someone to, "hurry up" and fix it... I merely meant that I would look at the situation and make the call according to where it was when caught. If you called them back you might say something like move to the left/right berm and come back uprange. If they were on the way back, you could still tell them to move to one side or the other while the other RO watches the gun.

The situation sucks, you do what you can to limited exposure.

Edited April 2, 2008 by JThompson

[XRe]

Punkin.... your statement should probably more read like "Properly working firearms don't fire themselves". There have been rare cases where guns that were in some way broken have fired themselves - failing part, extremely worn sear or hammer hooks, etc. No sense in taking a chance on that at all.

If the gun is pointed downrange, stop them, get them back uprange, clear and holster it, and then move on as normal. If the gun is loaded and holstered, have someone else go set the target while the RO stands with the shooter and the shooter keeps their hands on their head (again, not that someone is going to go grabbing at their gun while someone is down range - just an extra precaution because feces occurs)...

[Flexmoney]

We always talk about the belt and suspenders nature of our safety rules. Clearing the gun not only meets that, but it further presses forward the mindset of safety.

Sure, the gun isn't going to go off by itself (hot guns are carried everyday). But, one of the basic rules of gun safety is "don't point the muzzle at anything you don't want shot".

[RobMoore]

I think at the very least I'd have the shooter come up with me, holster the gun, and get the stage fixed.

I think the better idea is to bring them up, U&SC, fix the stage, redo L&MR, go back to the start and try it again.

[Punkin Chunker]

I think at the very least I'd have the shooter come up with me, holster the gun, and get the stage fixed.

I think the better idea is to bring them up, U&SC, fix the stage, redo L&MR, go back to the start and try it again.

I think it gets driven more by the level of the match/shooter, after thinking more about it.

Local matches, bubba squad -- holster hot, etc. If the shooter wanted to USC, no problem. The comment about dealing with something out of the ordinary underscores the need to pay attention.

Local matches with the eye of the tiger squad, or Level II matches up -- start over from scratch (USC, fix the problem, start the shooter over so he/she can get the mind right again).

As far as guns not firing themselves, the bit about "properly functioning" is probably a good thought.

Then again, I recall a .30 cal MG that started cooking off rounds . . . .