mark dye Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 I have always shot a light/short limited gun with a bushing barrel. It has taken me to a mid level master classification. It is funny to me that now after all this time I am freaking out about weight...something I never spent a lot of time worrying about before. This is such a personal preference issue that I always assumed that it was better to just go out and pull the trigger. I just let the B class shooters worry about how their gun tracked while I happily kicked their butts. I started thinking too much last year while looking at video of myself shooting major matches. My muzzle flip was considerably more noticible than other shooters on my squad. It made me wonder if I needed a heavier gun. I shot a CZ 75 in production exclusively for two years, and always felt that I was more competitive in that division than when shooting Limited against shooters of similar quality. Recently, I have been doing a little testing. I went out and shot my 34 oz. light gun against an long/heavy STI Edge at 40 oz. I would do a drill with one gun, set it down and perform the same drill with the other. The tale of the tape was that the difference was negligable. The light gun moved a little more, but it came back down just as fast. The splits and drill performances were almost identical. Today I performed the same test with my 35 oz Limited gun against my 42 oz. .40 single stack. This time, the results were obvious. I shot the single stack noticably better. Splits were faster, the sight returned better, and points were better. This was especially obvious while performing 25 yard bill drills. So now my delima is whether I shot better because the weight is positioned in the grip of the single stack as opposed to out front, or if I can just get a better grip on the smaller single stack frame (I have fairly small hands and short fingers). I guess the next step is to hang a big honkin'steel magwell on my STI to see if it changes the results. I also want to play with a Caspian hi-cap a little...they just feel great to me. Anybody have similar experiences? I want to hurry and put this behind me so I can just go back to worrying about pulling the trigger and calling shots!!!! Mark Dye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 The biggest thing isn't the overall weight of the gun, but the weight of the slide / recoil spring / firing pin stop radius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Matt how does the FPS radius apply here ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Matt how does the FPS radius apply here ? It effects the duration of the force required to cock the hammer back. I should have added mainspring weight to that above equation. No radius makes it very hard to rotate the hammer back and eats a lot of energy early in the slide movement. Lots of radius makes it easy and leaves that energy there for the recoil spring to absorb / frame to take at the end of the stroke. Or you can put a flat on the FP stop too. Lots of combinations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 I've never put allot of concern into MS weight before. What is a recommended weight ? What kind of changes would you see by changing that weight + / - ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 I have seen HUGE differences in the quality of the sight track regardless of weight. A light gun can have a sight track just as good as a heavy gun and vice versa, but the difference is in the QUALITY of the sight track. Slide weight, barrel weight, spring rates (main and recoil) and firing pin stop geometry play heavily into getting the sight track right. The hard part is everything needs to be tuned as a system. A light slide for the sake of a light slide is a serious mistake, and probably the most costly mistake you can make chasing this. Putting weight back into a slide is very difficult and expensive. Chris, not Matt but I will give you my take..... There are two major recoil impulses transmitted to the gun and to your hand that affect front sight rise and return. The first is as the slide cams the hammer back against the mainspring and the second is when the slide hits the guide rod head and stops. Altering the firing pin stop radius directly affects the first impluse, basically you are changing the mechanical advantage the slide has to overcome the mainspring. Give it more advantage and you unlock faster, slide runs faster and the front sight rise is diminished in the first impulse, trade off here is the slide will hit the frame harder and the second impulse will be stronger. Decrease the mechanical advantage and the first impulse feels stronger and the front sight lifts higher but the slide bleeds off more energy so the second impulse is lighter. No free lunch, it needs to be balanced with the weight of the slide and barrel together since they travel about a quarter of an inch as a single unit, free slide weight, spring rates and firing pin stop geometry. The way to know what does what is to experiment, you can burn THOUSANDS of rounds doing it and learn a LOT doing it, but I would recommend finding a gun that the front sight lifts and returns seemingly on it's own and go with it. Built with front sight tracking in mind a gun can weigh anything you want it to and shoot like it is on auto pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 I use a 17lb mainspring, and put a flat on the FP stop. Factory weight us going to be 19lbs? It's going to sap less energy from the slide and let it move a faster. Puts more energy into the slide hitting the frame at the end of it's travel. Usually ends up as less perceived muzzle flip. Same reason you like that 8lb spring in your limited gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 This may be a dumb question Mark, but does your Limited gun have the grip cut down/contoured so that it's smaller than factory? Have you looked at any of the other geometry stuff like the distance from the backstrap to the trigger face between the two guns? If they're noticably different it might be causing you to move your hand just ever so slightly that the single stack tracks better for you. How close in weight are the slides on the two guns? I'd suspect that Matt's comments about where the weight is would make the biggest difference. I haven't done comparison drills between my Limited gun and my SS gun but I do know that when I pick up the SS I think "man, that just feels right". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark dye Posted March 27, 2008 Author Share Posted March 27, 2008 In the single stack and light STI, I eliminated a lot of potential variables. They both have 14 lb recoil springs and 18 lb mainsprings. They have identical slide weight, and fp stops. The only meaningful difference is the frame. The Edge is a little different, sporting a recoil master. The light STI has an unaltered gripframe while the Edge has had the standard type reduction and texturing. I wish I had a Caspian hi-cap gun to test side by side with the others. Mark Dye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark dye Posted March 27, 2008 Author Share Posted March 27, 2008 In the single stack and light STI, I eliminated a lot of potential variables. They both have 14 lb recoil springs and 18 lb mainsprings. They have identical slide weight, and fp stops. The only meaningful difference is the frame. The Edge is a little different, sporting a recoil master. The light STI has an unaltered gripframe while the Edge has had the standard type reduction and texturing. I wish I had a Caspian hi-cap gun to test side by side with the others. Mark Dye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigj45 Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Mark, You mean your stumpy fingers reach the trigger on my Edge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulm540 Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 Mark, time for you to get a fat free 6 in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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