USPSA SG Rules - Buckshot rule change

[Neil Smith]

I think the cost factor is probably the driving reason why it is not being allowed.

Listening to the stages being described... I don't know if I want to spend the $$$ and the time for what you get.

Which would mean I would to go to the entire process of trying different buckshot. Patterning my shotguns at different distances with different chokes. I would have to do this with my main Tactical shotgun and my main HM shotgun.

I don't know if it's worth it for what you guys are describing.

Shooting turners, swingers and movers with buck? What's wrong with doing what we have been doing and shooting said targets with slugs?

Shooting at targets with no shoots near... what's wrong with bird (steel no shots) and/or slugs on these challenges?

It's fine and dandy if you shoot IPSC. But I believe the great majority of USPSA shooters don't shoot IPSC.

Religious

Kurt & I were not describing 3-gun stages but talking about IPSC shotgun only matches at Level III & above like the upcoming Pan-Am level IV in Michigan, shooting Buckshot in IPSC matches against paper & card targets with no-shoots is a very valid target set up & tests your ability to take a tight shot at distance & makes you get the best out of the shooter & his equipment & chosen load, Shotgun only matches are something that in europe & other IPSC regions around the world is growing & a world shoot is on the horizon its about beeing the best you can be with a shotgun, we use shot on steels with no-shoots an awfull lot & so the different ammo brings more interest into a match, 3-gun im sure is very expensive & something the UK can never have now thanks to our draconian laws on pistols & rifles so shotgun is all we have left.

Kurt is concerned im sure that WHEN not if a Level III or IV IPSC style shotgun only match arrives in the USA it will be something you may never have seen before & the rest of the world has already got a head start on you, not really a good position to find yourselves in.

N

Edited April 15, 2008 by Neil Smith

[Jim Norman]

At the annual OBCATS 3-Gun/Multi-Gun match we run 9 stages in one day. Grueling, but achievable. We have generally 1 each Pistol, SG, Rifle only stage and the rest are two gun. Generally we have Rifle Pistol or SG pistol. Rifle SG is not something I would expect to see too often in RL. Maybe breach a door, bunker the SG, then use carbine in the balance with a final transition to HG, MAYBE.

One reason NOT to have all 3 guns is the extended clearance time for the stage.

Jim

[SV_shooter]

At the annual OBCATS 3-Gun/Multi-Gun match we run 9 stages in one day. Grueling, but achievable. We have generally 1 each Pistol, SG, Rifle only stage and the rest are two gun. Generally we have Rifle Pistol or SG pistol. Rifle SG is not something I would expect to see too often in RL. Maybe breach a door, bunker the SG, then use carbine in the balance with a final transition to HG, MAYBE.

One reason NOT to have all 3 guns is the extended clearance time for the stage.

Jim

Does anyone want to touch my questions? they never seemed to be answered when I ask about multi gun.

[kurtm]

Okay I will DIRECTLY answer your question.....YES you can load your own slugs. The rest of your post seemed to be a rant and this was the only question I could find.

[SV_shooter]

Okay I will DIRECTLY answer your question.....YES you can load your own slugs. The rest of your post seemed to be a rant and this was the only question I could find.

Thanks Kurt, but my rants come from my lack of knowledge of the whole game. Shotguns usually shoot shot... do they not?

slugs and paper.... there designed to kill big game for cryin out loud! bird/buckshot seems like the logical choice of ammo for multi gun, or am I missing something? Any links on loading slugs? thanks for tolerating me!

[kurtm]

Whoops... my bad! There were two questions I missed the first one "what is the point of slugs"? The only slug I know of that has a point is the Fiocchi Arrow slug, the point, like the rest of the slug, is composed of lead. Breneke type slugs have a sort of point but it is closer to a bump and it is also made of lead

If you are asking what is the point in shooting a slug, I would answer that since the shotgun can and does fire a lot of different types of projectiles, such as bean bags, flares, tear gas, breaching rounds, shot, and slugs we need to test the shooters skill in all areas of shotgun deployment. Since most of this specialty ammunition is out of the relm of the average shotgun user we are down to shot, buckshot, and slugs. since "birdshot" isn't very leathal past about 15 yards to large targets we are down to two choices for effectiveness on a bigger target, buckshot and slugs. since most buckshot isn't very effective past 30 yards or so ( note I didn't say leathal, the pattern just gets too big to get enough pellets into a bigger target, but a single pellet can and will cause damage, we just like alot of them close to gether), that leaves us with the slug if we want to effectively engage a bigger target at any longer range than 25-30 yards. Since many people keep and use shotguns for defensive purposes, and in many states that is all that is allowed for hunting "big game" knowing where and how to hold for slugs is an important skill to posses and test. Therefore we shoot them in matches to see who can shoot them the fastest and most accurately, and who can do the manipulation to switch between ammunition types while under the stress of a timer. Besides there is very little in the world that can take a well placed slug and continue on...it is truely the great power tool in our 3-gun arsenal. KURTM

[SV_shooter]

Whoops... my bad! There were two questions I missed the first one "what is the point of slugs"? The only slug I know of that has a point is the Fiocchi Arrow slug, the point, like the rest of the slug, is composed of lead. Breneke type slugs have a sort of point but it is closer to a bump and it is also made of lead

If you are asking what is the point in shooting a slug, I would answer that since the shotgun can and does fire a lot of different types of projectiles, such as bean bags, flares, tear gas, breaching rounds, shot, and slugs we need to test the shooters skill in all areas of shotgun deployment. Since most of this specialty ammunition is out of the relm of the average shotgun user we are down to shot, buckshot, and slugs. since "birdshot" isn't very leathal past about 15 yards to large targets we are down to two choices for effectiveness on a bigger target, buckshot and slugs. since most buckshot isn't very effective past 30 yards or so ( note I didn't say leathal, the pattern just gets too big to get enough pellets into a bigger target, but a single pellet can and will cause damage, we just like alot of them close to gether), that leaves us with the slug if we want to effectively engage a bigger target at any longer range than 25-30 yards. Since many people keep and use shotguns for defensive purposes, and in many states that is all that is allowed for hunting "big game" knowing where and how to hold for slugs is an important skill to posses and test. Therefore we shoot them in matches to see who can shoot them the fastest and most accurately, and who can do the manipulation to switch between ammunition types while under the stress of a timer. Besides there is very little in the world that can take a well placed slug and continue on...it is truely the great power tool in our 3-gun arsenal. KURTM

Kurt, I appreciate your detailed answers. it explains a lot! THANK YOU!

[Nik Habicht]

Taking a quick look at Ammoman, it looks like Federal low recoil Buck is the same cost as slugs --- about $.80 per round if you buy 250 at a time.

You seem to be saying that cost isn't an issue. Are you taking into account the other rounds? ...rifle? ...pistol? ...other shotgun?

I'm in school fulltime --- money's a factor. I just don't think it's as big a factor as you think, but that may be colored by my experience, which on the East Coast is likely different from yours.

Anyways $.80 a round is still kinda expensive. And you have to buy $200 worth to get that price. And there's a good chance you might need to have more than one brand/type of buckshot --- just like you don't just have one shot shell in the bag.

Umm, no, actually I typically have only kind of buckshot (Federal low-recoil 00 9 pellet) and one type of birdshot in my bag (#6 if the range allows it; #8 if they only allow 7 or 8). I couldn't remember when to use what, or where to aim at which distance with which load --- so I'd rather simplify that down to the lowrest common denominator, because if I can hit each target with the first round, then odds are I'm doing something right.

As I noted earlier in my experience I have never had to use buckshot on paper. I don't find tour statement that "at most 3-gun matches you'd see maybe 1 stage that needed buck" as being typical. 8+ years of 3 gunning out West and I have never been required by the stage instructions to use buck shot.

And you guys have nine stages at a club match?!??!?!?

Yeah, o.k. my bad --- i meant at most 3-gun matches I've shot in this area, but I didn't get that across well. We don't shoot monthly 3-gun; there are a couple of clubs putting on an annual 3-gun match (at Old Bridge that's been either 9 stages in a single day or 12 stages shot over two days), but there are clubs putting on SG only matches, often 7-9 stages. Typically one or two of those stages require Buck, or some buck; another 1-2 require slugs, and the bulk of it is birdshot

Typical club match here in So Kal:

5-6 stages...

3-5 boxes of bird = $20-30.

1-4 boxes of slugs = $5-$20

80-100 rds of rifle = XM193($419/900= $.465)x80 or x100=$37.20-$46.50

40 rds pistol (reloads) = $5

~$70-$90 for ammo for one match. (+gas, +match fees, +equipment, +etc.)

Personally I try to shoot 2-3 matches per month and do a little live practice. To me $300+ per month in ammo alone isn't cheap.

Couldn't afford to shoot 3-gun several times a month. I hear you on the ammo, gas, food, entry fee, equipment costs.

And if you add buck shot? The cheapest buck may not 1) work your gun and 2) it may not pattern well enough for your needs. Typically you will probably need to buy multiple boxes of different buck to find what works for you. You need to find out what size shot is good for your needs. You will probably end up having to stock up on multiple buckshot shells with different shot sizes. Then you will need to take the time to shoot said shells at different ranges and the different chokes with your shotgun(s). Then how about some practice with the buck?

To me the extra $ and time involved outweighs what you get. I don't see much benefit.

But I don't see that having multiple penalties on a no-shoot as a good reason for not having the rule. I mean I can tag a NS with a pistol multiple times. Are you going to disallow NS with pistol?

To me the added cost for little gain is a better reason for not allowing the rule.

Well, like I said, I can manage that with a single load --- but I recognize that approach might not work for everyone else. No -- I'm not going to disallow N/S with a pistol; but I could be o.k. with a different rule for SG -- i.e. limiting penalties to two if we're shooting buckshot, which is a very different approach to taking 9 separate pistol shots. I get your reluctance --- but I'd like to see the rule book offering options, not restricting choices for match directors. I'd be fine with letting the market decide, and probably wouldn't base my decision on patronizing a match on whether or not they allowed shooting buck at paper or not......

[Religious Shooter]

Kurt & I were not describing 3-gun stages but talking about IPSC shotgun only matches at Level III & above like the upcoming Pan-Am level IV in Michigan, shooting Buckshot in IPSC matches against paper & card targets with no-shoots is a very valid target set up & tests your ability to take a tight shot at distance & makes you get the best out of the shooter & his equipment & chosen load, Shotgun only matches are something that in europe & other IPSC regions around the world is growing & a world shoot is on the horizon its about beeing the best you can be with a shotgun, we use shot on steels with no-shoots an awfull lot & so the different ammo brings more interest into a match, 3-gun im sure is very expensive & something the UK can never have now thanks to our draconian laws on pistols & rifles so shotgun is all we have left.

Kurt is concerned im sure that WHEN not if a Level III or IV IPSC style shotgun only match arrives in the USA it will be something you may never have seen before & the rest of the world has already got a head start on you, not really a good position to find yourselves in.

In USPSA the shotgun rules are part of the rules used for Multi-Gun. So even though you may only want to have it affect shotgun only matches... it would actually also affect Multi-Gun.

[Neil Smith]

In USPSA the shotgun rules are part of the rules used for Multi-Gun. So even though you may only want to have it affect shotgun only matches... it would actually also affect Multi-Gun.

USPSA rules are different to IPSC in many ways not just shotgun but when it comes to 3 gun matches, IPSC only allow for a tournement using all three guns but never more than one gun at a time on each stage, so in effect its three seperate matches & not all mixed together, this new USPSA rule change will only really effect those of you that wish to take part in any future IPSC shotgun matches in the USA or at the upcoming shotgun world shoot wherever that may be held.

N