Sight Focus...

[Ron Ankeny]

So I am kicked back watching Matt's new DVD when his "pupil" askes him about sight focus with a dot. I listen about half attentively then a light bulb comes on and I back the DVD up, turn up the sound and really listen to what Matt is saying. Matt talks about focusing on the target and bringing the dot into view, shifting focus to the dot and superimposing it on the target, or using a combination of the two.

Hmmm...I decide to pay attention to what I am doing so I can gain a better understanding of what I am really seeing. Through dry fire and a couple of trips to the range I get a good handle on how I am shooting the dot. On the draw, I look at the center of the target then shift my focus/attention to the dot. I do the same on long or difficult shots. On close targets I look to the target and let it rip when I see red come to the center. For all practical purposes I am using the dot as a front sight with no rear sight. Does that make sense?

Anyhow, I tried maintaining my attention/focus on the spot I want to hit and then bring the dot to that spot without shifting my attention to the dot and I found that very difficult to do. Actually, I found it darn near impossible to maintain target focus and shoot when the dot comes to the target without shifting my attention to the dot. I can tell it's going to take a lot of work to get to the point where I stop shifting my attention back and forth between the target and the dot. For you really fast shooters, what do you see when you shoot? Thanks in advance.

[Loves2Shoot]

I see the spot I want to shoot, then break the shot as the dot is getting to that spot (the timing takes practice.) I guess that means I see what I want to shoot out of my forwarded focused vision, and see the dot coming into that spot with my peripheral vision and when the two meet, the shot is good. On tough targets I see the round dot, on easy targets I see a blur of red on brown.

I don't get the whole shifting focus with a dot, the dot is superimposed on the target, why should you shift your focus from the part of the target you want to shoot? I had a problem shifting focus when I started shooting limited, but with open if you see red where you want to shoot, pull the trigger.

[Ron Ankeny]

L2S:

I don't get the whole shifting focus with a dot, the dot is superimposed on the target, why should you shift your focus from the part of the target you want to shoot?

I guess a person shouldn't shift focus although it sounds like you look at the dot on tough shots yourself. After a couple of decades of shooting irons in the precision shooting sports, it's going to take a lot of work to stop treating the dot like a front sight.

[Loves2Shoot]

I am having the same problem switching to iron sights (treating the front sight like a dot)

I see the dot on every shot, how clearly I see it, that is the part that varies depending on the shot.

[benos]

I found I shot my best if I trained to ALWAYS keep my focus on the targets, and the dot was seen peripherally. There's no reason to look back toward the dot with an electronic sight. But like was said, many years of iron sight training can make that difficult.

be

[mcoliver]

Strange, in my very limited experience with a dot sighted gun, I found out when I tried to shift focus back to the dot it gets really blurry (and felt the c-more "was in the way"). So I just look at the targets and "let the dot appear there."

[eric nielsen]

Ron

A quick way to train away focusing on the dot is a trick Jojo Vidanes wrote a few years back. All it takes is a strip of paper and some tape.

You cut the strip of paper (a Post-It works too) to be big enough to wrap around the front of your C-More lens or tube sight lens. Just some masking tape or clear tape on the body of the sight holds it there.

You dry-fire and also shoot live-fire without being able to see THRU the lens. You'll quickly see that focusing at arms length does you no good 'cus all you see is a dot and the texture of the paper. Much more productive to focus out at the target distance. Your mind combines the left eye & right eye images and you hit where the dot is.

Jojo wrote that as an exercise to strengthen & involve your non-aiming eye, for most of us that's the left eye. Works well for that too.

My thought is, if you're focus is set at the target distance, you're seeing the target and the dot - it's all the same thing. Not either/or. The focal distance is the thing. Curious who agrees, you're mileage may vary...

dvc - eric - a28026

[Ron Ankeny]

Eric:

I was out on the range shooting some plate racks and I dug a roll of tape out of my bag and tried your suggestion. I discovered I always shift my focus back to the dot on the draw, but once I get going I usually maintain a target focus. This makes sense because I am not real swift on the first shot, but I go like a bat out of Hades after that. I really appreciate the tip. As stoopid as it sounds, I am going to shoot a couple of club matches with the C-More covered up just for kicks.

[eric nielsen]

Ron

It's not dumb. Next time I shoot Open in bright sunlight, I'm going to try some window-tint film on the far side of my C-More lens. Should do the same thing as that polarizing filter that comes with every Aimpoint.

As fast as you made Limited Master, I was guessing that you have REALLY strong habits about shifting focus to arm's length.

I'm now going in the opposite direction (starting to shoot Limited) and I can see I need to drill drill drill that focus shift that I basically never did in Open.

One guy's reply to my post got bounced so I'll just write it here:

Mark:

The paper is between the lens (which you see with your aiming eye) and the target (which you DON'T see with the aiming eye).

The effect is the same as the Armson EOG red dot sight, which has no lens at all - they both require your brain to combine the images from the right eye and left eye. And that only works if you're focus is out on the target. The dot is focused on infinity, it looks clear & sharp no matter what.

Simple answer: you ignore everything about your C-More except the image of the dot on the target. Same as Brian says..

Eric

[bountyhunter]

Strange, in my very limited experience with a dot sighted gun, I found out when I tried to shift focus back to the dot it gets really blurry (and felt the c-more "was in the way"). So I just look at the targets and "let the dot appear there."

That's true. The "virtual focus" point on an Ultra Dot is around 15 yards out. If your eyes are focused on the target at that range, the dot will look sharp. If you try to focus on thethe dot at front lense of the scope, it will be very blurry.

[benos]

Caspian28,

Yes that's a great trick provided you don't have double vision badly enough so that you can at least see both the target and the dot.

Miculek used to do demo's for S&W where he'd shoot a string of balloons with an iron sighted gun while holding a piece of cardboard (safely) in front the sights. "These S&Ws are so accurate," he'd say, "you don't even need the sights."

be

[Ron Ankeny]

benos:

I have double vision, one above the other. Fortunately, I have prisms in my prescription glasses to correct for the double vision or I would really be a mess, lol.

[eric nielsen]

Yeah I had thought about mentioning that. I wondered if the ppl with different prescriptions in each eye would have a problem with that & seems the answer is... YES. (Sorry) Again, I've got no dominant eye. Maybe Jojo had a dominant right eye & so he liked the paper drill.

I saw Jerry M do that cardboard trick on American Shooter. In the past I actually did some dry fire with the paper wrapped around iron sites & it taught me how to focus in between the sites and the target. Having dots on your iron sites for a contrast makes it easier. Having said that, the in-between focus did NOT help me shoot limited better AT ALL & I will basically NEVER try it again. I'm now completely converted to a hard focus on the front site, with a real quick look out at target distance to find the next target. (Thread drift - off)

dvc - eric - a28026

[Ron Ankeny]

eric:

My double vision happens because my eyeballs aren't aimed right, lol. It's like a car with the head lights out of alignment. I will from time to time see a faint ghosting image and iron sights are not real clear when I shoot with both eyes open. On my limited pistol I can shoot very well with both eyes open out to about 10 yards and I can use both eyes on a wide open target out to about 12. For anything small, like a plate, or on longer yardage targets I shoot with one eye. I am about to the point where I need to just ditch the irons and stick with an optic.

As for the paper over the C-More trick, it works very well and I have used it in dry fire a couple of mornings and I have done it on 3 trips to the range. I am now using a target focus completely after the first shot, but I keep bringing my focus to the dot on the draw. BTW, I am right handed and my right eye is very dominant.