spook Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Ok, I just ordered an extra serrated trigger for one of my two Smith & Wesson 625's. I bought them both used (the guns, not the triggers). One had a serated trigger, the other had a smooth trigger. Both shooters I bought them from said they changed nothing from factory configuration (exchange parts etc.). I don't know if S&W ever sold 625's with serrated triggers or not. If not, am I still allowed to use it? The rules state I can only change sights, hammers, cylinder releases and grips. It says nothing about triggers, so my guess is it's not allowed (which would really make me sad, 'cause those triggers aren't cheap . Besides, serrating isn't going to give me any advantage, right? I just want it on both guns to make them feel the same) . Another question that popped up is cylinder chargehole chamfering. S&W currently sells their guns with chamfered chargeholes. Mine have no chamfering (old guns). Can I do the chamfering myself? Can the chamfering be a little more than S&W factory chamfering? The rules say you can modify your cylinder to accept moonclips, so I would think that means you can also chamfer the chargeholes? Argh...these rules drive me nuts! Please help me out! Thanks, Bjorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Spook, In order to avoid disappointment and possible relegation to Open Division, you should check whether the serrated trigger was ever offered as standard equipment (or an option) on the 625 by S&W. It's very likely that some ROs will consider such serrations give you a competitive advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted May 27, 2003 Author Share Posted May 27, 2003 Vince, thanks. I also post on www.smith-wessonforum.com from time to time and it's amazing to see how many different variations of S&W revolvers have been made. Limited runs of barrel lenghts, and stuff like that. I'll post the question over there to see if they know. I hope so, cause I just spent $90 on that trigger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Considering the dizzying variety of trigger options S&W has offered through the decades on every frame size they've made, I would put worry about "is my serrated trigger kosher on my 625?" low on the list. If I as the MD had an RO bump a shooter into Open because his 625 has a serrated trigger, and in the RO's opinion S&W never offered it as an option, I'd: 1) Reinstate the shooter to Revolver with apologies 2) Demote the RO to brass rat 3) Require a complete report from the RO, consisting of a letter to Roy Jinks asking for a complete history of the serrated trigger in S&W production, a list of all models on which such was offered, the reply from Roy, and a copy of the cancelled check paying Roy for the time and effort to compile said history. As you can see, I consider it a non-issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 .......... but Patrick, if you're not the MD, and Spook is all alone shooting a match in IPSC Guacamole, can he call you late at night and hire you as his IPSC Attorney? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted May 27, 2003 Author Share Posted May 27, 2003 Patrick thanks. I would consider it a non-issue as well. Thing is, I will most likely attend the European Championship in 2004 shooting revolver. I was just wondering how strict they are at those matches. I mean, technically speaking I'm probably not even allowed to shoot both guns with my Miculek springs. I've already sent S&W an e-mail asking if they ever produced a 625 with a serrated trigger. I don't care if it's a 625 .45 LC Mountain gun, as long as it's a 625 and the trigger's serrated, I'll take my chances Thanks for the replies, Bjorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Pat is right it is a non-issue. Smith changes around on their triggers about like I change my socks. I have seen narrow serrated, 3/4 smooth combat, and full target serrated triggers come from Smith on about any model as an option. The only trigger I haven't seen is a smooth narrow trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted May 27, 2003 Author Share Posted May 27, 2003 Ron thanks, you guys made my day I'll just go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryRM 18 Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Spook, the possiblity is that I will be one the staff at the Europeans next year, if I see a S&W with a serated trigger, I wouldn't bother about it, but I will check the springs. Joke, Joke. Question; If you have decided, technically speaking, that you will not be able to use these guns with those springs, why think about using them that way? And even worse telling the world There are things that are more relevant to making sure everyone competes on the same level, than a pound or two on a spring. Over the years of gunsmithing, I found that a lot of polishing of internal parts, made for smoother actions, but did not take chances on light strikes by reducing spring weights. It is everyones own decision to do what they consider best for them. I, personally just practiced more and strengthened my trigger finger As you may tell this appears to me to be a small issue. Sorry, Darth, but I like Guacomole, particularly with Margarita chasers. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 I would defer to many of the experts on the S&W list (since they are WAY too into S&W trivia) but I thought a 625 serated trigger was at one time offered - if not as a stock gun feature then as a catalog item through the custom shop. If it is a cataloged S&W product, would that not be allowed? Also, Vince - what about the limits of chamfering? Is their a measurement for such things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Carlos, No, there are no stated limitations on chamfering. Frankly, if somebody came to my stage with a serrated trigger, chamfered cylinders and a left-handed titanium widget, I probably wouldn't notice because I just don't know enough about revolvers (but don't even think about trying to trick me when it comes to Glocks!). However the guys who will know intricate details about revolvers are other revolver competitors and they're the guys who will protest if they think you have a modification which is illegal. This is why I urge Spook (and everybody else) to ensure their guns are division-legal before they start shooting a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted May 27, 2003 Author Share Posted May 27, 2003 Barry, the trigger on my gun is about 8 pounds . I think that if you will open Jerry Miculeks gun, you'll find a pair of Jerry Miculek springs . Vince, you're right. I will use the trigger, but the springs will have to go. Man, revolver rules are funny when you think of it, aren't they? You can exchange so much really relevant stuff, yet something as trivial as a sideplate screw (aftermarket) could be your ticket to open class . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 Spook, FWIW, the LAST thing I would ever look at on a stage is whether or not a trigger is serrated. After all, I'm not quite sure how I could even do that, since I couldn't see the trigger when the gun was holstered anyway. Also, I am far from a revolver expert, and generally have too many things going on keeping the stage running smoothly, that unless something was blantantly obvious, I wouldn't even worry about it. That said, I would expect the guys on the chrono to be looking for things like this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryRM 18 Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Hi, Spook, I had done a whole screed on this, but my server shut down and it was lost. So in short, I always advised my revolver students to use a smooth narrow trigger, as I had found a serated one was a disadvantage. X rays done to my friend's hand. Tell you later. On the model 29 I had, the main spring had an adjustable screw. Altering this, is it a mod? It gave you a lighter pull, but gave some misfires. Had a look at Jerry's gun in South Africa and it was light! I not going to argue with Jerry, he is too nice a guy and he is fast But a lot of polishing will give the same effect, permitted mods? Unfortunately Vince is right if you come to the stage with everything right there is no way you can be faulted by an over zealous, or over knowlegable RO, with a maybe a less than very experienced RM, who can really tell the difference between enforcing a badly worded rule and ensuring every one has a good shoot in the spirit of IPSC. This is of course a subjective opinion and one I will answer to any time. I still remember the IPSC principles, PC or not. I now will put lots of smilies, so you know this is meant in a friendly fashion and meant to be taken as observations and not critisms. Margaritas are on you Vince. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 spook: I called Smith and Wesson this morning to order a different front sight blade for my 610 ($30.00 with shipping, ouch) and I asked about triggers. The guy in customer service told me any of their triggers wide, smooth, narrow, etc., could be had as a factory installed option. I guess that pretty much takes care of that little issue. If you are still nervous I imagine you could get it in writing. I am interested to know what kind of reply you get to your e-mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Possibly interesting: I remember years ago reading an interview with Jerry Miculek, asking why he had serrated triggers in all his guns when the conventional wisdom was that a smooth trigger was better for fast double action work. Jerry's succinct reply: "Can't shoot fast with a smooth trigger." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted May 28, 2003 Author Share Posted May 28, 2003 Ron, send me a picture of you. I'll print it on a T-shirt that says "my hero"and will wear it to the world shoot in 2005 Thanks. Great. The trigger stays 100%. YEEEHAAAAA. Jerry's succinct reply: "Can't shoot fast with a smooth trigger." Duane, that's the exact reason I bought the triggers. If I can remember, Jerry's word were: "with a smooth trigger, my finger would be all over the place". It made sense to me. Barry, what happened to your friends hand? The altering of the tension screw is not illegal. That would fall right in the "Internal modifications to improve function and reliability are allowed. "- corner. And now that I read that, I see I've missed something. Springs are internal parts. So they're allowed to be changed under these rules Why didn't I see that before ? Dang, I don't even have a problem. Is there something like trying to be too PC? Thanks everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Looking at all this debate around possible and allowed modifications raised a question to me. Well, this question has been already raised during a discussion on Production Division allowed changes (see here), but the answer has never satisfied me. The question is: if a RO is not able to tell a custom internal part from a factory one, how can he, the RM or even the Arb Committee decide if the modification (protested from other competitors, as Vince suggested) is legal or not? Are we going to ask each competitor to produce factory evidence of the suitability of his handgun for the claimed division? I dare to say we should get rid of this factory stuff: as long as it doesn't require alteration of the handgun, internal/external custom parts should be allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryRM 18 Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 all this chatter sorted out with a simple phone call and another quiet reading of the rule Many years ago my friend shot a model 24 and used to beat most of the semi auto shooters in the UK. He had some problems with his strong hand and went to the docs. An x-ray showed significant bone wear on his trigger finger, where the trigger acted, and bone density increases on his palms, from the grip. There are also two little bone hooks on the forefinger and thumb, that have a ligament attached that keeps the web of the hand together, ish. These hooks on his gun hand were broken, the condition is known in the medical world as "gamekeepers thumb" apparentley originating from shotgun use by gamekeepers in bygone years, shooting poachers? So if this wear happened with a smooth trigger? I would never argue with Jerry, but we aren't all Jerry I always tell my students if you don't do it the conventional way and it doesn't work you are wrong, if you do it the wrong way and it works, you are unorthodox. When the insomnia struck at 4 am this morning I had another thought about a situation, which I will ask Vince about at another time, why does the phrase "Pollard, get a life" come to mind? Have fun guys and speak with you later. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 I would be happy to be anyone's range attorney, but I have been informed that my fee structure is too steep for most. Considering the various options that S&W has offered through the century-plus they've been in business, anyone who seriously argues that "S&W never offered that option" is courting a comeuppance. If you can think of its, they've probably made it for someone, somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted May 29, 2003 Author Share Posted May 29, 2003 Ok, I got a reply from Smith & Wesson. It's short. Very short. This is the exact reply I got back: sir-they did use serrsted triggers on some of those thank u <--- My reaction That's pretty clear, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Ha! Thought so! Go get'em Spook! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 That's an actual quote ??? Damn. It looks like it was written by Mr. Smith's domestic helper, who hails from the Republic of Tabasco ............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted May 29, 2003 Author Share Posted May 29, 2003 Carlos, yeah, I'm gonna get those other revolver shooters!! All three of 'em!!!! Vince, my thoughts exactly. If I was ever to prove to a RM that S&W produced guns with serrated triggers, and I would show up with that "reply", I wouldn't stand a chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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